Being comfortable with being uncomfortable - Kevin Palmieri

Jon Coogan (00:00)
From the edge of despair to hosting a top 100 self -improvement podcast, Kevin Palmieri's journey is a testament to the power of transformation. So welcome to Mindset Mavericks. I'm your host, Jon Coogan. And today we're joined by someone who turned his lowest point into the foundation for an extraordinary life. So Kevin is the CFO, founder and co -host of Next Level University, a global 100 top self -improvement podcast with over 1 ,200 episodes. So rather than delve straight into his journey now,

I'm gonna introduce Kevin and we'll dive into his story, which I'm excited to all our listeners to get to hear. So welcome, Kevin, thank you for being here.

Kevin Palmieri (00:39)
Jon, thank you so very much for having me. I appreciate it. I'm excited to chat and see where we go.

Jon Coogan (00:44)
Thank you very much. As I touched on, there was certainly a rock bottom moment, which has transformed your life essentially. And I think that's probably a good place to start talking about your journey and where you've made some changes. And I wanted to go into, you've obviously hit rock bottom, realized there's somewhere even lower than the basement. Can you share what led to that moment and how it became a catalyst for your transformation?

Kevin Palmieri (01:12)
Yeah, it's always, I always for context just let people know I was raised by my mom and my grandmother. I didn't know my dad. didn't meet my dad until I was 27. And I was definitely raised lower middle class. So there was a lot of conversation that I can still remember to this day about how we were gonna pay rent and how we were gonna afford to live. So that's become part of me that I've been working through for a long time. I decided pretty early in my high school journey.

that I didn't wanna go to college. It just didn't make any sense to me. I don't like school. I don't wanna go pay people to try to help me figure out what I wanna do with my life. I'll go try to figure out myself. So after high school, when all my friends went away to college, I got a job at the local gas station pumping gas. And that was my first big boy job. And from there, I was a personal trainer. After that, I worked at a hospital cleaning bathrooms and floors.

truck driver, forklift operator, construction, on -call firefighter for a very short period of time. I was just trying to figure it out, Jon. I had no idea what I wanted to do. But eventually, in my early 20s, I think 22, 23, I got a job in an industry called weatherization. And all that means is we went into large buildings, and it was our job to retrofit the buildings to make them more energy efficient. So...

I essentially went from making $15 an hour as a construction laborer to anywhere from $60 to $120 an hour doing this new job. So I'm convinced everything I did leading up to this was the right choice and I'm gonna be successful. Now this is awesome. I've always wanted to be successful. I'm gonna be successful and I assume that this success is probably going to cover up or shine

Jon Coogan (02:49)
Hmm.

Kevin Palmieri (03:05)
all of the internal voids I've been dealing with. So that should just kind of work itself out. So if you fast forward a few years, when I was 25, I had this job that paid me really well. I was prepping for a bodybuilding show. So I was quite literally in the best shape I will ever be in. My girlfriend at the time was a model. I had a sports car. I had just moved in with my girlfriend. We had a nice new apartment. And from the outside looking in, I was absolutely crushing it.

But internally, I was insecure. I was self -conscious. I had very low self -worth. I had very low self -belief. And I was way more depressed and anxious than I ever really understood. So my initial rock bottom was my girlfriend ended up leaving me because I was a shell of myself and it was really hard for me to pour into someone else and their growth and their ambition and their alignment when I couldn't even do that for myself.

So she left and unfortunately, Jon, I didn't get the hint that it was time for me to grow internally. So I thought to myself, well, maybe I just haven't made enough money yet. There's gotta be a threshold where I cross where everything will just kind of work itself out and I just haven't crossed it yet. So I proceeded to spend the next year of my life living on the road because all of our contracts that year were in other states.

And I spent 10 months living in hotels every single week, traveling all over the place, get to the end of the year, and I made $100 ,000, 26, with no college degree. And I remember opening my final pay stub, standing at my kitchen table, because my ex -girlfriend took the table, the chairs, and I was never home, so I never bought new ones. I just didn't, I didn't need chairs, I was never home.

And I remember I opened the final pay stub with the expectation that I was going to feel fulfilled and I was going to feel super confident and I was going to feel like I was a valued human and my self -worth was going to be there and nothing changed when I opened my pay stub. So I realized in that moment that for most of my life and especially that year, I had lived unconsciously. The opposite of unconscious is hyper conscious. So shortly thereafter, I started a podcast called the hyper conscious podcast.

in 2017, fell in love with podcasting. I loved it. But as you know, Jon, in the beginning, there isn't exactly a line out the door of people trying to give you money for your great ideas. Unfortunately, right? Unfortunately, it doesn't work that way. So I had to keep going to this job that now I absolutely loathed. I accomplished the goal. I traded in a year of my life to do it. I'm not willing to do that again.

And now I'm every time I pack my bag to leave, I'm already homesick. I'm anxious. I'm depressed. I am not feeling good. So over the course of the next year, I start calling out of work. start leaving the job site early. I start showing up late. And eventually I found out that rock bottom has a basement and I woke up in a hotel room, six hours away from where I lived. My alarm clock went off. I sat up. I slid to the edge of the bed. was lacing up my work boots.

And the best way to explain it is that morning, there was 10 televisions on in my head at the same time, and every single one was on a different station. And one is saying, you're stuck at this job forever. I know you don't want to do this anymore, but you got so lucky to even get this opportunity. Do not mess this up. If you ever did work up the courage to leave, what would your friends say? You make more money than any of your friends. There's significance there, right?

What would your family say? You make more money than anybody in your family. There's significance there, there's pride there, there's belonging there. But the loudest thing I heard was, do you really think you're gonna be a podcaster? That's our plan B. We're gonna leave a six figure job to try to make a podcast our job. That doesn't seem very feasible. And it was in that moment, six hours away from anybody who cared about me in this dark, dingy, crusty hotel room, that I thought to myself, well, if I was just to take my life,

I would take my problems with me. I just felt so stuck. I felt so trapped. I felt like there was no other way. Luckily, I had a really good friend who I felt like I could be safe and vulnerable with. I sent him a message explaining what I was going through. And he gave me a lot of stuff, a lot of good stuff to hang on to. But the thing he said that I really remember to this day was, Kev, over the last couple of years, your awareness has changed a ton, but your environments have remained the same.

I think it's time for you to change your environment. So I ended up leaving that job three or four months later, partnering up with who's now my business partner, Alan. And then I began the journey of trying to be a full -time podcaster entrepreneur. And that was in 2018. And I would, again, I would love to say that's where everything jumped off and then we were successful and we made it. But the next three years at least were absolutely brutal. Not just from a

physical standpoint of being an entrepreneur, but from the mental health standpoint of having anxiety attacks and panic attacks and imposter syndrome and all that stuff as well. So now we've quote unquote made it to some level of success, but getting here was just absolutely brilliant.

Jon Coogan (08:48)
a lot of information to unpick and there's so many topics I'd love to delve into. I think really going back to the beginning, you say about these feelings of low self -esteem, you're in the best shape of your life and still didn't feel like, essentially it feels like you didn't feel you had enough self -worth, you didn't feel like you were good enough. Do know where that feelings came from to begin with?

Kevin Palmieri (09:12)
I have to imagine that feeling abandoned from such a young age. So today, my deepest core wound, my deepest fear is disappointing others, especially men. So before I chatted with you, Jon, I looked to see what is Jon about? What's the podcast about? Because I want the certainty that I'm gonna be able to make this episode.

positive and I'm not gonna disappoint you with something I say. I have to imagine that all came from my dad leaving when I was young and somehow not logically but hyper emotionally young Kevin must have internalized that and said well he left because I wasn't good enough I wasn't smart enough I wasn't the right son whatever it is do I ever recall ever saying that or thinking it no but I'm sure I did

and that ultimately became the identity that I unfortunately adopted. So I would say it had to have come from that, for sure.

Jon Coogan (10:17)
And there's so many bits of your story which resonates and I think I've seen a lot, particularly in social media, and it's a desire to try and fulfill your life with physical goods, like say whether it's a car, whether it's having a good body, and it's all those external factors. When you were going through that stage of the separation with your partner, what do you feel that it was that was missing from your life at that time?

Kevin Palmieri (10:41)
I think one was purpose. didn't feel, I had never taken part in something that was greater than me. It was always like, this year my goal is, this year my goal is. I didn't have anything that it was all adding up to. That was part one. Part two, I didn't have any self -awareness. I had no idea why I was doing what I was doing. I had no idea.

I just, I had no clue. didn't know myself at all. And I think I was missing self -worth.

I didn't believe I had any value. I remember when my partner left, remember thinking, who could ever love this version of Kevin? I'm not valuable, I'm not lovable, I'm not anything anybody would ever aspire to be around. It was a lot of that. Those were the three that jump off the page at the most, I'd say.

Jon Coogan (11:42)
And it sounds like a lot of struggles that you have been through has been the catalyst, which has eventually made you successful in terms of giving you a drive to be the best that you can. Do you feel that that's quite accurate, that it's really those struggles which has made you and actually given you some benefits? Do you look back on your past in that way?

Kevin Palmieri (12:06)
Yeah, yeah, it's easy now that I'm not on the other end or on the other side, but it's easy to look back and say, anxiety in some way, or form has actually really helped me because it forces me to be hyper proactive and to prep a lot and to be super certain on things. And I'm really good with logistics for that reason. But very transparently, I still struggle with low self -belief.

I still deal with imposter syndrome. So yes, it's definitely become a positive and now it's easier to look back and see the signs and see the lessons, but it's still something that I deal with way more occasionally than I think anybody would ever guess. If I didn't say it, I don't know if anybody would ever know, but if I didn't say it, then I wouldn't be the type of person that I needed when I was going through these struggles. So that's why I try to be as committed to vulnerability and authenticity as possible.

Jon Coogan (13:06)
Yeah, I really appreciate being so open about it. And I say it's by hearing other people's stories, you can see how you can actually get through that and realise that these times aren't forever, whatever it is. If it's a good time, it's not going to last forever. If it's bad times, it's not going to last forever. And it's just trying to be present and realise that you can change your situation. And with that in mind, what things you had this moment with your friend on who's given you some great advice about the sounds of it?

So what did you actively do to try and turn your mindset around and try and follow your passions and bring yourself back up from the rock bottom moment?

Kevin Palmieri (13:44)
Yeah, almost. It's interesting because I didn't do anything different in the three months between when I had that and when I left my job. I just knew there was a light at the end of the tunnel. It almost became. Wait, so you're telling me if I lost this job, it wouldn't be the end of the world. If I left this job, it wouldn't be the end of the world. So that gave me hope and it gave me an expiration date. So it was like, OK, I only have to hold my breath for a couple of months. When I left, I started tracking habits.

So my business partner is an engineer. So he is reverse engineering everything. That he's really good at reverse engineering stuff, which I'm grateful for, because I was terrible with that. And he said, I think you should start tracking habits. And I said, absolutely not. No, that sounds terrible. Sounds constricting. I don't want to do it. He said, I really think it would be beneficial. All right, I trust you. So I think in the beginning, I would track, learn for 30 minutes every day, whether it's a TED talk, a book, a speech.

audio book, whatever, track your finances. At the time it was easy, it's not hard to track zeros every day and that's easy enough in the beginning. Do something that scares you every day. So you call it fear chasing. And make sure when you do it, you give yourself credit for it. What else? Meditate every day and then maybe exercise for 30 minutes every day, something like that. So in the beginning, what I didn't know I was actually doing was I was building self trust.

little by little, I was building self -belief because I was proving to myself that you're going to say you're going to do something, you're going to prove to yourself that you did it, and then you're going to self -assign that as, wow, I did that. And then I was also helping my self -worth because I felt like I was becoming more valuable. I felt like every time I learned something, I was capable of adding more value into somebody's life. Now, I don't think that's the journey for everyone for self -worth. I think that's still a dangerous if -then statement.

But in the beginning, it was really that. the thing that's, it's always hard to communicate is one of the things that has changed my life more than anything is just deep talks. Just stuff like this where I get to explore awareness and consciousness, it has helped me tremendously because it's helped me understand me at a very, very, very deep level. So I've had tons of deep, probably seams,

inconsequential or meaningless conversations with the people around me that have helped me understand myself at such a deep level now where I just have a higher awareness of why I act the way I act. So that was something too that helped me a lot. So habit tracking, learning, and then practicing deep conversations for self -awareness.

Jon Coogan (16:31)
Yeah, I think that part is really important is having those conversations where you might say you might identify through discussion something significant which has happened in your life. And that affects how you're acting or acting or reacting to people now. And it's only when you've got an awareness of that, you can identify yourself is actually healthy habit, healthy behavior, or is it destructive. And it's not always that clear. But but sometimes when you do look back, that's where those

knowledge bombs come from and you can start to change your behaviour to be more positive, to be better for the people around you.

Kevin Palmieri (17:06)
Yeah. Yeah. It's really hard to change your behavior until you change your awareness.

Jon Coogan (17:10)
So you talked about some of the habits you do yourself and I know you talked about doing hard things. So pushing those boundaries and recognise once you've done that, you are capable and you can keep pushing those boundaries and that's how you begin to build your confidence. Is there some hard things that you've been aiming for for the last, how about say six months? Have you got things in mind now which you can say you've done which is hard and that's helped her?

build your confidence.

Kevin Palmieri (17:42)
Yeah, it's a great question because it's different than it used to be.

Now, I would say I am more in a self -worth phase than I am a self -belief or confidence phase. And all that means is now, I mean, this is a confidence builder for me. It just might not seem like it, right? I remember looking, when I think I, when I looked you up, yeah, background in investigation, financial services, endurance events. It's like, what don't, what does this guy do? When do you sleep? How do you do all this?

So jumping on with you, that was outside of my comfort zone. The art of the podcast is not, but being one -on -one with a man that might intimidate me is. So right there, that's a check mark. Strong work, Kev. Good, good for you. The self -worth aspect is something that I'm really trying to work more on when it comes to standing up for myself energetically. So again, self -awareness. The second I logged on with you and I heard your accent,

I automatically assumed you were gonna be a kind -hearted, centered human being. And that's all the energy I've gotten from you so far. The first part of intimidation and fear went away. And then it was, all right, let's just add as much value as we can here. We're here, we don't have to worry about us, we're fine, add value. But there are some interviews that I'll go on where energetically, the host tries to dominate.

And in order to maintain and preserve my self -worth, have to figure out what is, I don't want to puff up and ego up, but how do I try to maintain my energy so I don't actually, I don't bomb my own self -worth? Because one of the best ways to crush your self -worth is to set a boundary and then just eliminate it because you're overwhelmed or intimidated or whatever it is. So I would say right now I'm doing a lot of stuff that scares me.

I'm not necessarily setting them as goals because I think they're a byproduct of the goals that we have set, but I'm really focused on trying to maintain my self -worth because I realize that that's something that has affected me as much, if not more than low self -belief in the past.

Jon Coogan (19:58)
And it's fascinating how you talk about intimidation by the other person. And it's easy to forget that everyone does have those moments and it's that imposter syndrome or, everyone is worried about themselves and not focused on the other person so much. Just for example, as you've mentioned, I'm quite competent with the business side of things and done quite a varied background, but podcasting is new to me. And I'm here speaking to somebody on a podcast who's done 1 ,700 plus podcasts.

that's quite an intimidating experience to make sure you're doing it professionally, you're good at questioning. So it's just a fascinating experience to see that we're both having those same feelings. And with that imposter syndrome, I know you said, when you did start doing the podcast, and you had those similar kind of thoughts. And you were, is this really going to be what I'm doing with my life? Can I do this professionally? Is it going to work out? How did you get over those feelings at the beginning?

Kevin Palmieri (20:31)
You

It is.

I didn't, I didn't, I still have them, I still have them to this day. One thing that helped me a ton was in the very beginning, I did not claim to have the answers to anything. So I just wanted to have deep conversations with deep people. It was almost like there is no guarantee that you'll take any value from this. Just imagine you're a fly on the wall with two people having a conversation.

So it wasn't that I wanted to be a thought leader or I wanted to be a coach or any of that. In the beginning, I just wanted to have cool conversations. Then when Alan and I partnered up,

That helped me, it's interesting, because it helped me a ton, but also it increased imposter syndrome even more because he knew way more than I did. And I always had the deep fear that people were gonna find out that although I created the podcast, that's in quotes for anybody who's listening, I wasn't the mastermind behind the success. I wasn't the strategy, I wasn't the numbers guy, I wasn't the business guy, I was the creative guy.

So it almost got worse for probably the first few years. Then eventually we interviewed, I don't know if you know who Steven Kotler is, but he wrote a book called The Art of Impossible. We had the privilege of interviewing him. And it was one of the first times where I saw Alan in his element with someone who was like him. And I remember thinking, my goodness, I don't belong here. I'm the host, I don't belong here, what do I do?

I either ego up and try to be something that I'm not, or I just be myself and I'll be the funny one. And that was a very pivotal moment for me because that's when I tried, at least internally, to stop being more like Alan and to start being more like me. That was huge for me. So I would say that it probably took me a couple of years to even understand what imposter syndrome was. Now, I still have those moments where I'll say,

I really hope this person doesn't find me out before an interview or whatever it is. And I always look at the most recent and relevant proof to get out of my emotions. Let me look at logic here. Well, what is the most recent relevant proof that I have that proves my emotions wrong? I went on a podcast recently where I thought I didn't belong and it went really well. Awesome. Let's focus on that. Let's not focus on the fact that I'm emotionally hijacked because I'm triggered. That's how I get through it today because I still have those moments, but

Yeah, working with somebody who is completely different than I am, who is a visionary genius and a math genius, when I'm not either of those things, it created a ton of conflict in the beginning internally. And if I could get through that, the person that I podcast with every day, everything else probably will be a little bit easier, actually.

Jon Coogan (23:59)
Again, there's always so many points to pick up on. think one of the interesting things you mentioned is essentially you're doing something uncomfortable. You know it's going to be uncomfortable and doing it anyway. And one of the things I've always used for years now actually is if I'm coming up to a situation and I'm feeling anxious about it, rather than being, what would I do? I always ask myself the question, what would the person I want to be do? Right, I'm going to do that.

Kevin Palmieri (24:01)
Yeah.

Jon Coogan (24:27)
And it's just a way of removing that personal, personal feelings you've got about it and being like, I'm going to do it. And that's what it is. It's just being comfortable, being uncomfortable and just getting used to it. And like you say, the more you do that, the more easy it becomes.

Kevin Palmieri (24:39)
Yeah.

Yeah, or what advice would I give somebody in a similar situation? I was on a plane one time. I don't like planes. Doesn't make any sense, Jon. I don't understand how those things fly. They're big and they're metal. It doesn't make any sense. I don't like it. But I was with one of my friends and I found something very unique. She was more afraid than I was. And when she was more afraid than I was, I wanted to make sure she wasn't afraid, which means I can't be afraid, or at least I can't show it. And I felt braver.

Jon Coogan (24:47)
Hmm.

Kevin Palmieri (25:14)
Interesting. So that's another way too is if you want to be more confident, help somebody else be more confident. We will do more for other people than we will do for ourselves. Might as well try to leverage that in a positive way.

Jon Coogan (25:28)
Yes, helping others helps yourself. It's a great outlook to have. There's two things I was going to pick up and you may well have answered this already. wanted to ask about your relationship with Alan and how the dynamics between two of you has made it success and how those differences can cause conflict and how you deal with those as being quite different people. How do you deal with conflict?

Kevin Palmieri (25:54)
We're very blessed because I can count on one hand the number of real conflicts we've had. We've had like two or three arguments. Then we cried it out to each other and then we were back better than ever. We try to proactively practice vulnerability, courage and humility. If you have those three in a relationship, you're probably gonna be in a pretty good spot.

The difference now for us is that I never, now I understand that some of the biggest pains in the butts about Alan are also the most beneficial. And he has started to recognize that about me as well. So now it's Alan's always late, kind of always, and I can't stand it. But I also understand that when his mind is set on something, he can't just stop in the middle of it to make sure he's not four minutes late.

because his time is probably more valuably spent doing what he's doing. I have to trust that. I have to trust that. Just like when I tell him intuitively, I don't know how to explain it, but I know this is gonna work. Now he trusts that and we have enough proof that we're actually, we kind of know what we're talking about when it comes to that. So yeah, the challenging thing would be in the beginning, a lot of my quote unquote weaknesses were extra weak from his perspective.

And a lot of his strengths were over arrogance from my perspective. And what we've been able to do over the last seven years is I've helped him create humility. He's helped me create self belief. We've really helped each other work on our self worth working together. I've helped him understand people at a much deeper level. And he has helped me understand success in the world at a much, much deeper level. And we've coined something called the drive to five where

At the beginning of this, when it comes to self belief, I had zero. He had 10. There's nothing Alan Lazarus can't do if he sets his mind to it. We've driven to five where now we're both more confident, but more humble. We believe we can accomplish stuff, but we know we need help to do it, right? So we've just driven each other to five. We've been able to take one another from the polar opposites to kind of, kind of the middle. And I think I've helped him with vulnerability and emotion.

and he's helped me with logic and strategy.

Jon Coogan (28:23)
That does sound like a great relationship. So I can imagine there's a lot of times it could be a big strain, especially going into business with a friend. But yeah, sounds like that vulnerability and those discussions and understanding is really what's made you gel and work.

Kevin Palmieri (28:25)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's scary.

Yeah, and we have very similar core values, core beliefs and core aspirations. don't, I want to win. I want to succeed. I want to impact the world. I don't have to be right in the process of doing it. I just, I want what's best. We had one of the hardest, but easiest conversations we ever had was when we decided he should be CEO and I shouldn't. Like, yeah, no, that makes sense. You've been CEO before and you're smart and you're a business guy. I shouldn't be the CEO. I'll crash this thing right into the, right into the rocks.

This is for you.

Jon Coogan (29:10)
and having done so many episodes together, I'd say of 1 ,700, what's the biggest takeaway that you've had from a podcast? Is there one standout moment that you can think back to?

Kevin Palmieri (29:26)
Hmm. A lot of them for me were probably experiential. We did an interview. There's a guy named Brent Pinvidic. He was the producer of The Biggest Loser and Bar Rescue and big shows like that in the US. And we went to his house in California and we interviewed him in his movie theater, which for me was like, how the hell did I get here?

How did everything work out to the place where I got here? That was a very, very surreal moment for me. And then he cooked for us. He had a grill outside and he cooked for us. And it was just weird. It was just a super weird day. It was a weird week for me. So I have a lot of experiences like that where it just blows my mind that it happened. One of the lessons that was throughout episodes, we interviewed people early on.

And when they told their story, I would think to myself, my goodness, what a traumatic or what a transformational or what a pivotal story. I'm sure we're never going to hear anything like that again. And then the next week we had a guest and they had a story similar. So eventually I got the lesson that your adversity can be your advantage if you know how to make it that way. What separated

this person who went through this traumatic event and then use that as something from somebody who doesn't have the privilege of doing that. That became a lesson for me that I still hold close to this day because we heard some stories about people that just by all definitions and all stats, they should not be as successful as they are. But what made the difference? Right. So that was something that really jumped off the page for me. And you're a podcaster, you interview people, it's probably the same.

It's like, I'll never hear a story like that again. next week, somebody has their own unique version of that story, as I'm sure you have your own unique version of that story. So that's probably the biggest lesson.

Jon Coogan (31:28)
Yeah, so everyone's got their own struggles and you've had your own adversity. We've spoken about your lowest moment already today. So now, if you do encounter adversity and struggles now, how do you approach that differently than what you would have done all those years ago?

Kevin Palmieri (31:45)
Number one now, I understand it's kind of par for the course, right? Life is hard. is coming for us all and there's gonna be moments that we wish didn't happen. And there's gonna be moments that we've been wishing for for years too. But number one, it's I try, I'm not always great, but I try to make sure I focus on what I actually can do about it. That's one thing. I try not to ruminate over it and just

think and think and lose sleep and all that. try to understand that when I go to bed, if I say to myself, I did everything in my power today to fix this problem, I have to be okay with that. Because that's the goal. Because I'm going to wake up tomorrow and do the same thing. I try to do everything in my power to make sure that problem doesn't happen again. So I would say that's one big thing. I also try really hard now to separate myself and

me as a person from the problem. So how do I not personalize this thing? It doesn't just because I'm going through something doesn't mean I'm a bad person. doesn't mean I'm not smart. Doesn't mean I'm not capable. It doesn't mean this is impossible. It just means I'm going through it. And then what I really like to do now, Jon, is I like to look back. So when I'm really low emotionally or really high emotionally, I like to reflect on old days. Just as a

a piece of proof of how far we've come and how much has changed over the last five years. I didn't believe we'd be here today. I can't imagine where we're going to be in five years from today. So that gives me a lot of hope and a lot of inspiration. And then I believe the song, I think it's called, I think it's Rooster by Alice in Chains. And one of the lines in the song is they haven't found a way to kill me yet. I always play that when I'm struggling.

Because there's a little piece of me that's like, know it's beat me down right now, but you have not found a way to kill me yet, and this is not going to be the thing that kills me. So that's been something I've been doing, albeit strange, but I've been doing that recently.

Jon Coogan (33:51)
And I love the advice about looking back to where you were. think too often now people will compare themselves where they are now to where somebody else is now, which isn't helpful. Everyone's got a different story. Everyone's got a different path to get there. So it's much more beneficial to be looking at a comparison against yourself than anyone else. And I love that approach to approach to adversity and seeing how far you've actually come in terms of what your legacy and what you want that to look like. You've obviously

focusing a lot on essentially building confidence and you've got your podcasts and helping other people's mindset. What does your legacy look like for you?

Kevin Palmieri (34:34)
I don't know if I think of legacy the same way as other people do. And all I mean by that is my legacy with you and your audience is probably only the hour and 15 minutes we have together. So my legacy is hopefully something I say here will impact someone in some new way and they may never hear of or from me again. And this might be the only time I ever have the opportunity to meet them.

So I think legacy for me is on a very minute day -to -day experience to experience relationship. I almost think of it exclusively as I have one shot with this person. I'm gonna try to give them something that maybe will help them in some way, or form. Whether it's the waiter or the waitress at a restaurant or the person who's delivering the Uber Eats. If I can do something different, if I can make you smile, if I can make you laugh.

That's my legacy, because you're most likely never gonna see me again. And you don't know I'm a podcaster, and you don't know I love self -improvement, and you don't know what I'm trying to do in the world. You just know this very finite amount of time we have together. So that's really my goal. Oftentimes when I log into a meeting, especially a podcast interview, I'm like singing and dancing, and people always say, why are you so happy?

I, number one, I get to do this for a living. So it's weird to me that I even get to do this. And number two, this might be the only time you and I ever talk. So I'm gonna give you everything I have. I'm gonna give, I'm gonna leave it all on this interview and this conversation because you may never hear from me again. And that's the best I can possibly do. So that for me, when anybody asks me about legacy, that's it. It's minute to minute, moment to moment, day to day. That's really, that's really that.

If you said, what do want people to remember? How they felt. Yeah, if I can make somebody feel a little bit different, then that's good in my book.

Jon Coogan (36:40)
And we've got touched on it, you've got next level university. What is it that excites you most about next level university?

Kevin Palmieri (36:50)
The opportunity to impact as many people as we get to, it's... I mean, that's what everybody wants in the beginning. When you're talking into the mic and nobody's listening, you're imagining a world where there's more people listening. And eventually, you get to that world, and then it's like, I can't wait till there's more people listening. And it's kind of that forever. I don't know. It's weird. It's like, I know there's a lot of people out there that want to get to where we are.

but the second we got to where we are, started looking at the next mountaintop. So was like, was cool for however long, but yeah, it's that, it's the fact that.

we get to speak into so many lives and we have the opportunity to impact so many people. And we've done thousands of coaching calls. Like those are all people. It's really easy to forget you have a hundred people that listen to a podcast episode. Those are a hundred human beings. That's a lot of people go speak in front of a hundred people every day. That's a lot of people. So yeah, that's, would say that's probably the coolest part. And then I think

Another really interesting thing that a lot of people just don't know is behind the scenes there's a giant team and there's there's more going on behind the scenes than in front of the scenes. So it's it's really cool how it's turned into like a real business with chief officers and meetings and business meetings and metrics and all that stuff. I mean it's really wild to me that it's gotten as far as it has. So that's really cool.

Jon Coogan (38:25)
trying to think back towards the days when you when you were feeling really low, you were earning lots of money, outside looked like you had a perfect life. What is it that you get now that makes you feel fulfilled that you didn't have back in those times?

Kevin Palmieri (38:44)
growth in contribution towards something that I will probably be pursuing forever and never actually accomplish. Because it's not about the accomplishment, it's about the process of becoming the type of person capable of accomplishing it. I think it's that. And I'm really proud. I'm really proud of what I get to do every day. I genuinely love my life.

Which is weird, because I never used to. I never used to. My life is hard, but it's deeply meaningful. And that's something I never really had. I've had hard bouts in life for sure, but that hard was never connected to deeply meaningful. And now it is, it's not about me. None of this is about me. Maybe I'm the face of it or one of the faces of it, but it's not about me. It's not for me, it's for...

Impact and and the world and the people and the community and all that so yeah deeply meaningful or two words that come to me and then growth and contribution towards something that I'll probably never actually accomplish But I'll be way better as a human if I do try to

Jon Coogan (40:01)
We're starting to get to the end and starting to wrap up, but what if there was a final piece of advice or one takeaway in particular for the listeners here, they're on their own journey of self -improvement, especially those who might feel stuck or overwhelmed. What piece of advice would you give?

Kevin Palmieri (40:18)
I would say if you feel stuck, overwhelmed, directionless, I know that's a tough word, but maybe lacking clarity around direction, focus on growing you. If you don't know what outside of yourself to grow, focus on growing you. Focus on learning more about yourself, focus on learning more about your past, focus on learning more about your traumas, triggers, ego responses, that type of stuff, because that's never gonna go out of style and it's always gonna be super valuable because you are the vessel with which you're gonna live the rest of your life through.

So that would be one thing. And then one of the things I usually like to leave with is your reality becomes the parts of your imagination that you hold onto and that you pour into the longest. Over the last seven years, I have hung onto this weird, strange belief that I could be a podcaster. And I have poured into it every single day, days where I didn't think I could. I give

10 % day, if I have 10 % to give, I'm gonna try to give 10%. But in the process, I've had to let go of a lot of stuff that I kind of cared about too. And I've had to stop pouring into people, places, things, ideas and feelings that I didn't really want to, but they weren't what was best for me. So your future is gonna look different than your current present does, but it's gonna look different to the amount that you architected.

I just, don't want anybody to end up five years down the road by accident. You're gonna end up five years down the road no matter what, but it's either gonna be by design or by accident. So hopefully we can make it more by design. That would be, that would be the ending for.

Jon Coogan (41:56)
Yeah, I think that's a great place to finish off. And I wanted to thank you for sharing your journey, your insights with us today. So for our listeners, if you're ready to take your next, your life to the next level, be sure to check out your podcast, Next Level University. And yeah, where's the best place to find you? Where can we find out more about what you're doing? And, and I know you do talks, and you've got a lot of things going on from Next Level University. So where can we find out more?

Kevin Palmieri (42:23)
I would say the podcast will kind of tell you everything you need to know, but the website is nextleveluniverse .com that has all the stuff that we're doing as well. So yeah, that's probably the two best places to go. Those are kind of the central hubs for all things NLU.

Jon Coogan (42:38)
Amazing. Thank you very much for being on. I enjoyed the conversation and can't wait to hear some more of your podcasts. Thanks.

Kevin Palmieri (42:41)
Likewise. I appreciate you, Jon. You're wonderful.