Chasing the Impossible: Neil Marrakchi’s Journey to Reinvent Coffee

Welcome to Mindset Mavericks. I'm joined today by Neil Murachy. he's the founder of Reformed Coffee. And I'm very excited to have you here today. So we're looking forward to our conversation. I wanted to give our listeners a little bit of an idea about what you do. And I know you work in, it is in a wellness space. It's with Reformed Coffee. And it's in adaptogen space, which is very exciting at the moment. And it's an industry worth about 10 billion pound, if I'm right. And before we go into it, I want to speak.

We are going to speak a little bit about your history and how you got into Reformed and the journey you've had as an entrepreneur. But can you tell us a little bit about Reformed and what that company is? Hey, John, thank you so much for the invite. Really, really happy to be here with you. The journey of Reformed as a company, well, it's still pretty new, really. We launched to market on the 2nd of April, 2024, so a bit more than five months ago.

But actually we started working on it in November 2022. So that's where the idea initially came, where I considered launching this, even though as you can imagine, the idea was different at the time. It ended up changing a lot in the meantime. And yeah, I was joined by my co -founder whose name is Neil as well in March. And I'm very happy and grateful that...

he joined the journey because he's making a big impact and anyway starting a venture by yourself is always really tough I think. Yeah it's a lot of pressure, there's a lot of not anyone to bounce ideas off which can be really important. And emotionally I would say you know even when big because problems happen you will have big issues and you can deal with them but psychologically it ends up being very hard I think I mean that's my opinion. Yeah it sounds like it's quite a lot.

that has taken place before you actually got your co -founder in place. So just going back a little bit before your business was founded, can you tell us a little bit about your history and what you've done prior to Style and Reformed? Yeah, of course. So I'm 24 years old. I was born and raised in Morocco. I grew up in Casablanca. I was in a Spanish school, so my mother tongue is actually Spanish and French.

French -speaking country as well as Arabic. I came to the UK when I was 18 to study at Warwick University. I had the time of my life there. Frankly, I couldn't hope for better. I met amazing people, made a great network as well. Met very fun and ambitious people, I think that had a very positive impact on myself as a person and as a work person and gave me a different perspective about work.

And I studied economics there. was running a... I I started my first business when I was 19. Actually, the first business I started has nothing to do with e -commerce, direct consumer or the wellness space. It was to do... It was a marketplace kind of... I mean, it didn't really perform, but it was kind of an Uber for cleaning services. So I just realized that a lot of people in Lemington Spa, which is the small town...

close to work, were looking for, you know, the day after parties, let's say they were looking for someone to help them cleaning. So I just wanted to put in relation, people provided this service, we all needed them. We run this for like two months, but then COVID happened and we were, it was not allowed to send people to No more parties, no more clean and needed. And I was not in the UK anymore, so I had to go back to Morocco during -

So that, I mean, it was just my first entrepreneurial experience, a lot of struggles, but it was very interesting. And then I got into consumer businesses. initially I was just getting in touch with suppliers in China. When I would think they would have interesting products to sell, I would create what we call white label brands, which means I just create a product that is already existing and I would create a brand around it.

And I managed to have very interesting experiences and I learned a lot I would say from this because I really, I mean, learned how to start something from scratch and take it to pretty interesting levels in the UK and US markets. And I would say as of today, the big skills that allowed me to get where I am are the ones that I got from this different e -commerce white label brands that I grew.

Although obviously emotionally they've never had the impact or the importance reformed has in my life. It was just a way to get started and to learn. Yeah. And as you say, just starting a business, whatever business that is, you can learn so much from that, which does give you the confidence to go on and try, try things. you said to your first business, didn't last that long. It was a couple of months and everything changed with COVID, which I can definitely resonate with.

So what did you learn from that first business? What would you say was the biggest lessons? Well, dealing with people is not easy. And I think it's probably maybe the biggest challenge when you run a business. you know, especially as I told you, we were dealing with it was a people's business. I was putting people in relation together and and it was hard and I didn't expect it to be that hard. But then you learn. think there is nothing that is

unachievable, you just get used to it and I wasn't used to it. So that's why I think we could have actually even now there was a market for that. We don't really manage to exploit it in the right way. But if someone's at work university and is listening to me, trust me, you could be making some money if you tried that. Yeah. And so you've had your e -commerce business where I white label products. And is that something that's still running or is that something you've left behind? It's not anymore. I mean,

we that it was, as I told you, the learning curve was crazy because I started knowing nothing and I did manage to get some brands to a couple of million dollars in revenue. know, these usually are one person businesses. I was running that by myself. Obviously, I was working with a lot of freelancers here and there. Yeah. But yeah, I was very happy about the experience and obviously the it.

also allowed me to start Reformed really because the initial capital I needed to get started with a passion project such as Reformed which we're going to talk about, it came from that. So it was really the foundation that I needed to be able to have a bigger ambition which I have now. It sounds like it could be seen to be a weird decision. You've got a

business which is doing a million plus revenue sounds very successful, sounds like it's doing well. What made you decide to tip that on its head and start reformed? Well, that's a very good question because that's something my friends ask me a lot. I was making money. I was 22 years old living in London, living the great life. And I was making more than enough to just live comfortably and

I was working from home. mean, I could travel whenever I want with whoever I wanted. Like I had total freedom. Yeah, that does sound ideal. So that's why I can see why it's a question. In reality, it was not anymore for me because I mentioned having a passion project, like something you have a vision for and also

I have a, I think I have, mean, we all think that of ourselves in a way, but I think I have pretty high potential in business and I really want to exploit that potential. think I can create something really big. I definitely want to, and I'm going to try. And I think I'm on the right path too. And I just thought that it was the right time to have a bigger vision that was not only about money. Money's always there. We're not going to lie, but.

I think we can go bigger, better with being better surrounded as well. I was feeling a bit lonely in my business. Although I was working with people I had hired, I mean, I had a small team, but I was feeling bit lonely in there. it was just time for me to look further and see and have a bigger ambition, as I said. Yeah. And talking about bigger ambitions, what is your ambition for Reformed? What's your end goal for it? Well, that's a very difficult question to answer really.

I don't have a specific answer for that, but you know, as I told you, have a pretty high esteem in that sense of myself where I think I can do big things. I have a very high esteem of my co -founder as well. I think we're a great team. And this morning we were talking and I was telling him, if we don't, if him and I don't manage to create something huge, who will?

why not us? It would not make sense. I think we have everything we need to, the right skills, but obviously a lot of people have skills. I don't think that's what really makes a difference. We have the will, the ambition, the passion really, right? And for Reformed, I think we definitely want to be a global brand. We started in the UK, or main market in the UK today. It takes time, so we have to be patient.

We're very new, we were still in the early days, but I can see this becoming a global brand that is present in high streets. For now, we're mainly, or 95 % of our volume is online, but I would definitely love to be able to just go to a big city, walk in a high street and see reform and feel that it's totally normal because we became...

That's a big goal of mine to be fair. Yeah, one of the things I'm hearing and I absolutely love is that confidence and self -belief. But where does that come from?

Well, obviously there is self -confidence and but just like any human I doubt myself a lot. Just I want to specify that because no one is always 100 % confident all the time, even if some people might appear to be, trust me they're not, and I'm not. And well, I do have confidence in myself in certain areas of life and that's because I think you build it really.

And, you know, that relates also to the past experience we mentioned. I went through struggles, not huge ones, and I think more of them and the harder are coming. I'm still very much in the early days. But you just prove yourself in a way that you can make things happen. And more than proving myself that I was able to achieve this so I can do more, it's more about I can feel that

I really want it really bad. And I do not think a lot of people in this world, and that's a pretty big thing to say, but I'll say it. Not a lot of people in this world want as bad what they want as I want what I want. I really want it really bad. And I think that can make a big difference. I want to touch on just because we've really spoken much about the product and what the product is and why it's important. But can you tell us a little bit about

what it is that you actually make and why that's going to be a bit of a game changer. So the idea came from the second most consumed beverage in the world, which is coffee. More than four billion cups of coffee consumed every single day in the world. And as I mentioned earlier, my mother is a nutritionist, so I've always been very health conscious about what I eat, what I drink.

And one morning I remember I just, I mean, I was already following a bit the space, the industry, was seeing that functional coffees were on the rise, especially in the United States. And one morning I remember my flatmate at the time poured some vanilla syrup in his coffee, which is fine. A lot of people do and I even sometimes do when I go to Black Street. And I just thought, wow, I was not a coffee drinker by the way, now I became one, but I did not used to drink coffee at all.

And I thought, wow, that's not a very healthy thing to do because it's very sweet. And then, you know, I was into direct consumer businesses. was thinking selling a consumable and a subscription based model would be great. And then I saw my flatmate doing that and I was like, coffee, how can we make this space better? Are we going to try to create the tastiest coffee in the world? Well, that's a very complicated space. A lot of huge brands in there.

Obviously I've had seen some of the brands, Modwater and big brands working on functional coffees already, but I wanted to take it to the next step. was, I'm a big fitness passionate anyway, so I've always taken care of my protein intake. So initially the idea was to create a protein coffee. That's the first thing I had in my mind without disturbing the essence of the coffee. And by essence, mean taste, texture, smell as from the consumer point of view, it wouldn't

consumer wouldn't feel the difference or see a difference, but we would be able to make it richer nutritionally. But then obviously when I were going to talk about it, but when I visited the first labs in London, they asked me questions I had no idea about. So was completely inexperienced. But I learned while I did, right? You just learn by doing. OK, so that's one of the next questions really. So I know you've spoken a bit about your background and it's not been in

in that nutrition space, scientific space. How did you go about from having that first idea to actually working out if it's viable, if there's a market for it, what did you do to test your ideas? Well, I didn't. That's the honest answer. I didn't really... And I think that's a mistake a lot of people do really when they want to... I mean, that's my personal opinion. I don't intend to know better than other people, just my opinion.

I have friends who say that they want to start their own venture, but they want to benchmark this and test that and make sure there is demand for it. You can never know. It's either you have to take risks and to be totally honest, and maybe that's one good thing about being young, you're a bit naive. And I was naive because obviously I started something and I invested quite a lot of money in my pocket.

without really knowing because you're right. had no idea if there was a market for it as well. I felt it. So obviously you have an instinct that talks. But I was not sure. I was not sure. I saw that it was on the right in the US, but I didn't want to make, I didn't want to create a mushroom coffee really. That already existed. You have big brands in the US and in the UK that do that. It's part of our offering, but it's not our real value proposition. We don't intend to create a mushroom coffee. We want to go.

a step further. Okay, and in terms of what a step further looks like, what does that look like? So I know there's talk about adaptogens for the products that you're making at the moment, but what's the health benefits and what benefits can you get from drinking coffees with collagen and with mushrooms and some of the other other ingredients you're using? Well, as I told you, the goal here was to add nutritional value without disturbing the essence of the coffee, right? So

Really, when I was talking to the food scientists, we were like, OK, what can we bring in that would not disturb the rest? And by rest, I mean the taste, which is really important for coffee drinkers. Because obviously we would we could be thinking of adding more electrolytes. can add everything that is healthy. You can put in there. But then obviously it would not be enjoyable to drink that. So it was more about finding the right balance between what can we bring in without removing what people love already about coffee.

And the kind of benefits you can get. Well, I think our North Star ingredient, our super star is collagen. Right. And that's what we call a product, the collagen coffee. It's reformed collagen coffee. And collagen is is genuinely a magic superfood. I'm obviously I mean, being a founder of a collagen based brand, you would expect me to say this, Having consumed collagen for a couple of years now, I can safely say

that it is maybe the only supplement that I have felt made a big difference in my day to day life. And I strongly recommend to any person who has not tried adding collagen to their daily routines to give it a try. Not necessarily with reform. I'm not trying to sell my product here, but give it a try. Generally, it has a lot of health benefits. You know what's interesting as well? In the beginning,

I used to call all the clients we had in April back when we had 10, 15 orders. And I used to call them and I remember talking with men that would tell me, yeah, your product seems great, but it has collagen in there and collagen is for women, right? And I was like, no, why would people ask that? What do mean collagen is for women?

And the thing is that a lot of people associate collagen with, you know, some women add collagen to their skincare routine and it's sometimes being perceived as a feminine product. And it's not really because it has a variety of potential health benefits. Skin health is one of them, nail health, hair health, but also muscle recovery. It's made a huge difference for me in terms of joint.

pain, connective tissues. Yeah, I mean, it can be useful for many, many different things. And I definitely felt a big difference. And I am seeing our clients now that have been consuming the product for a couple of months now, saying that it is making a tremendous difference in their day to day life. One of the things I have read about sticking on the adaption side of it is the ability to reduce stress and anxiety. Is that something you're you're seeing?

anecdotally, for your product? Well, for the adaptogen space, there's definitely a rising market for that. And there are definitely magics that perforce as well in a certain way. We have decided to use two specific adaptogenic mushrooms in our product, which are Lion's Mane and Shaga. Lion's Mane is the most popular one, because of this cognitive benefits.

helps in focus and relieving stress. Also in a way we use Shaga for that. I think they definitely play a big role in that, but I'm being totally transparent, also wondering to what extent there is a placebo effect to that. Because as I told you, we went through a year and a half development phase for our product. And during that year and a half, I mean, first we had a committee of people trying it.

and having every single day to be able to give their opinion on the taste. Obviously, it's not so on the impact it has on how they feel. And people do really feel a huge difference. But then these ingredients are not studied enough, yet there is no enough scientific data to back what some other brands are claiming. And for this exact same reason, for now we're

we're making decisions to not make huge claims. Obviously, we do have some data to back certain things. The reviews we're getting from customers is mind blowing. And that's why I'm asking myself, well, for now, we don't have the research to back that. But then what people say and the claims that some brands make are just out of this world. Maybe there is a placebo effect in there or not. Maybe I'm wrong. And maybe these really are magic superfoods they have a magic impact from a day to another.

Which is great because our customers are very happy and then I'm the happiest in the world as well. I know you've touched on it a couple of times now about the length of time it's taken from that idea and inception through the testing stages and it's not often you get to sit down somebody who's been through that process to understand why it takes that long. So what is it that takes all that time from idea to getting it to a stage where it is ready to release? Well first you change your mind a lot because during

We said it lasted a year and a half. During that year and a half, you change a lot as a person and your ideas change a lot. So every night before going to bed, you're thinking of that product you're working on and you're thinking, maybe that would make you better or not. Maybe we should remove that. then there's a lot of work to it as well because you don't work on it by yourself. You have other people that are involved in the process.

These people, in my case, were not even in the UK. They were based in the Netherlands, in Hindoven. So we would either work remotely and they would send samples of the new versions or I would travel and go to their city to be able to work more closely with them. But then obviously that didn't... I think the process could have been shorter, definitely. It could have. But I'm happy it did not because during that year and a half, I had time to reflect a lot on...

what I wanted to do. We were very very picky in terms of taste and I think what's making a real difference and we're seeing a lot of our customers saying they switched their subscriptions from competitors to ours is definitely the taste and we want to get that spot on because obviously if you have the healthiest product, healthiest supplement in the world, it's great. If people do not enjoy it and they don't enjoy having it every morning, they don't just

they don't integrate it to their routine. And it's a business where you need big retention. You need people to have it again and again. That's how you make money, really. So all in all, you need a great product that is healthy, that tastes great. And that's where we worked very hard on. And it does. I've seen the packaging, seen what it looks like, and it does look amazing as well. So I'm sure there's a lot of thought that's gone into that design.

Where did you get your inspiration from? In terms of design? Yeah. Well, I have to mention my co -founder in this specific case. He, I mean, obviously it was there, but he led that part of the development. We were looking to create a very premium luxury brand within the supplement space, within the health and wellness space.

we're using the codes of fashion because his background is in the fashion industry and we're bringing them into this space which is not a very common thing to do I guess. We had this idea, it took time, we talked about it and we were very lucky to have someone who's, I can say who's an artistic director at Rimowa, Rimowa the suitcase brand of .H.

who really loved the idea we had and was very interested in being involved in a way. And that's where obviously we accepted getting him involved. And we worked very hard on creating something that, as I told you, tasted great, was very healthy, and looked fantastic. And the customer experience there is super important. From unboxing to just, you know, every morning you...

it's it's pleasing to see something that looks great on your kitchen counter and just having it and and it feels just premium right and we were inspired by some of the brands in our space such as athletic green so we see there yeah but we're also inspired by other brands that do very different stuff from us and the example we always mention is ASAP I don't know if you've heard of it we love the the branding and the the customer I mean we're consumers of ASAP myself and my co -founder so

We know what they offer and we inspire ourselves a lot from what they do. And there are other brands as well, obviously, but this is the first one that comes to mind because we used to mention it a lot during the designing process. And in terms, I say it's quite a new business. It's been launched around six months ago, but obviously it's been going a little while longer. And I you've done some quite exciting collaborations and work in some big brands. How did that come about? Well, that's definitely related to your previous question. I think our branding is...

is helping a lot. People really love what we're, the looks of what we're offering. I'm not even talking about customers, mean, customers as well, but we've had interest from very big magazines such as GQ, Vogue, just because they like what, how it looks, right? And for instance, two weeks ago, there was an event, recognized by Vogue, the magazine here in London, and, they, offered us to collaborate with them.

Obviously, we were very happy about that. And they were like, look, you don't even need to pay us. You can just give us a hundred bottles. You know, we have our classic glass bottle, which I think looks fantastic. And they really wanted them to to include them in their goodie bags for their for their guests. And we're like, OK, would be great if we could give them to our guests. I'm sure they love them. And and we're more than happy to include you in our next in the next.

magazine, I mean the next edition, I don't know who called that. obviously we accepted that, we did the same with GQ for their yearly flagship event called GQ Heroes that was back in the beginning of July. It happened in Soho Farmhouse. You had huge global superstores who attended the event who got to try reform because we also include samples of the product. So we're always happy to collaborate with these big institutions.

But yeah, usually I think what's making it really appealing for these big institutions who already show a certain interest in us is the looks of it. And we're receiving tons of DMs on Instagram as well. Like, wow, we love how it looks. How can we maybe work together? It's bringing in a lot of positive things for us. We're happy that we worked on it. very hard. And just on branding, think it's definitely working.

That's, I mentioned before, but that's how I first noticed you and noticed your brand and that's how I came across you. It does sound like a bit of a dream journey so far, but I'm sure it's not been quite as straightforward as that and there's definitely been challenges. So can you tell us about some of the obstacles you've had to face from that first idea to get into where you are now? Because it's a bit of a meteoric rise. Yeah, I mean, trust me, it's not. In a certain ways, it is a dream journey because

We have a vision and we're feeling that we're moving forward and we're moving towards that. So in that way, it is dream journey. But trust me, are like countless issues in during the process. In the beginning, the first issue I had personally was, you know, I told you I started visiting some labs in the UK because that would make more sense because this is where I live.

And because I was just frankly a kid that had money to spend and no really specific idea of what I wanted, well, some people try to benefit from that, right? So I remember I visited the first lab, it was in Hammersmith, London, and the quote I received was just tremendous. And it was non - I felt that these people were just here to take my money and

probably I would have paid them and maybe they would even, I mean, I don't want to judge them, but fast forward a few months, I can now feel that I would have made a tremendous mistake if I had worked with them. But I had no clue. I had no clue because obviously I was inexperienced and young and I'm still inexperienced and young, by the way, I want to specify that. But I was even more inexperienced and even younger and I could have made tremendous mistakes there. My co -founder, I met him a few months after that.

He's more experienced in a way than I am. And I saw great potential in him. mean, not that I saw potential in himself, but I saw potential in us as creating a huge synergy. So I had to get him on board. He was not really 100 % done with his previous venture. So that was also a long process to make sure that we were both 100 % involved in this new venture that I...

that initial started, that worked out pretty well. then, you know, I'm just going to tell you every time I would, especially in the first few months, every time I would receive a sample from the food scientists I ended up working with, in the beginning it was frankly disgusting. know, sometimes you think, well, maybe what I'm trying to do is just not doable. And especially when you have no experience in the space and...

You don't do it by yourself because I was not the one trying the different recipes. They try twice, three times, four times, ten times, and it's still not good. It's really far from what you're trying to do. Well, you started out, you say, well, maybe what I'm trying to do is just not doable.

But then you have one more sample that gives a bit more hope and you just never lose hope. we managed to do a product that is great, but I still want to mention we're still in the very early days of the journey and the hardest is to be done. So I just don't want to appear like someone who's talking about his success. I'm happy about what we've done so far. I'm extremely proud of it, but we're...

very much in the early days and there's so much to be done to be able to say I did it because I haven't yet. Yeah, I'm intrigued about what you have just said about some of the early samples not being great and go back and having to keep questioning yourself, is this going to be achievable? So what is it that made you keep going even despite all those questions and some of those setbacks where you think it's not doable? What made you keep digging away at it? Well, you know, it seems like I'm just throwing flowers at myself.

In a way, think my biggest...

the best thing, the best skill I have is in my everyday life, whether it be at work or literally every other life, I would say is my perseverance. I do not know how to give up. I genuinely don't know. It's something that I've never done and I'm happy about it. It can be a very positive thing, like in this case, and it can sometimes be not so...

such great things, especially with some people and some friendships and some other types of relations, it does bring in some negative impact. But yeah, I just never considered stopping. And then obviously there you have other factors. You've already invested a certain amount of money, of time. You've already talked about it to everyone. So you're at a point where you have to make it work. So I have to admit, it's not really it was never a question. I never thought of stopping. I did doubt.

Sometimes I thought, okay, I'm going to do it. Yes, but maybe it's not going to be as good as I initially wanted it to be. But I never really thought, should I stop? That's never a question that came to my mind. And in terms of bringing in a founder, I you've worked a lot of it on your own beforehand and spoken a little bit about how it can be a lonely journey. It's a lot of pressure and just emotionally you're making those decisions all on your own. So is there a particular...

point or particular thing that happened made you think you needed a co -founder or how did that collaboration come about? Well I was already thinking about it because I told you I was feeling lonely from my previous venture. You know I think that's more of a life thing really. Any experience is better if you're well surrounded. You know every win is better if you have someone by your side. Every loss is easier if you have someone by your side.

And it just made sense to me. I got asked this question yesterday and someone asked me, why him? I was like, first, it's not like I had three people in front of me and I picked someone. It's not that how it works. And then it was just, you know, sometimes life is just sometimes life makes a lot of sense. Sometimes it doesn't. And in that case, it made sense. It just made sense because that

I saw a potential synergy of that person bringing in some things that I wasn't able to bring in. I was able to bring in other stuff that he was not able to bring in. and... And I told you, was obviously money is in there, but it was not only about money. In this case, I think the vision we have, and hopefully we're gonna make it work. There's no guarantee to that. We're still very much in the early days, once again, but the vision here is very big. I definitely believe that...

we can create a brand that is as big as a gem shark, to be honest. Maybe people will call me crazy. And you know what? Please do call me crazy. I have no problem with that. And that's always better to bring in talent with you. You can be very confident. You can believe in yourself, but...

after you'll still human so you cannot do everything by yourself. So I'm more than happy, very proud of having made the decision. Although as I told you, it felt natural so it was not even a decision really. And it already is having, I don't think I would have brought to the business to where we are now, which is still pretty low compared to what we want to do. But even that, I don't think I would have achieved it without him.

It was, I think, a great decision. And he's also called Neil as well, just to complicate things a little bit. Correct, yeah, that's a very funny thing. So you've told us about some of the traits that you've brought into this working relationship, but what is it that your co -founder brings in that you feel you might have been lacking? Well, you mentioned that the branding part was really important and his vision was critical to that. He... Well...

I didn't even consider that before, I mean, when I started this venture, when I had the idea of starting it, bringing in a fantastic customer experience and a fantastic branding experience as we want to do it now was not even in my mind. It's not something I really considered for me. was about creating great product that tasted great, that was bringing in tons of health benefits and all that crap. But he brought in a different perspective.

that I didn't even consider beforehand. We also made the product better because he's a big coffee connoisseur, which I was not. Obviously you can either work with other people that have more knowledge than you have in certain areas, but it certainly helped that he... the taste profile... mean, his opinion was really important and...

And everything went faster when he joined. That's also, think, I wanted to mention just because I obviously sometimes doubt myself and having someone that tells you, no, this is the right thing, we have to push forward. And sometimes it was the opposite. He would be a bit more hesitant and I would be there saying, let's move forward. There is something to be done.

And that's where I'm telling you, think we had the, we were managing to create a fantastic synergy and I'm really enjoying the journey by the way. And let's see where it goes. And just you've talked about, you've been a lone person building your business in the past and you've currently now got a co -founder as well as you're working closely with.

Do you see the drawbacks? Are there drawbacks of having co -founder for you? Have you noticed anything? No, like literally none, because you have tons of benefits, which I just mentioned, and others. And there's also another one I want to mention is you learn a lot about yourself. And, you know, in a way, it's a very special relation that you have with someone.

Obviously, it's not a friend. I I consider him as a friend, obviously, but it's not a normal friendship. It's not a romantic relationship. But you are. It's difficult to be closer to someone than you are to go from there. It's someone you talk to all day, every day, all year long. So that taught me a lot about myself and me specifically, honestly, being young. I have so many things to learn.

I mean, we all have things to learn, really, but maybe even more for myself. And this is teaching me a lot about life. So no, no, nothing negative. Yeah, I see exactly where you're coming from. Those relationships, the co -founders, they are quite intimate relationships. It's very difficult decisions, difficult conversations you've got to have with people. So I can definitely see how you can... Well, that does not mean that sometimes you don't get irritated by the other person. Obviously that happens. There is no...

magic world in here, like we're humans sometimes I am just very upset against him and he's probably very upset against me. But like any human relationship really, even if you have your marriage, you will have some complicated times. And as of now, we're more than fine and probably that we will go through complicated times. And this is where I hope our values, I think we have some very important shared values. And just like in any marriage, really, you

think that the partner shares things that go deeper than everyday character but real intrinsic values. This is what I think protects the partnership and in this case I really believe that we were spot on on that sense. And I'm quite intrigued by you say you're 24 years old that's quite young to have done

and achieved what you've achieved so far with some of previous companies and what you're dealing with reformed. have you seen, have you had to overcome obstacles due to your age? I know you've mentioned about the labs and potentially take them taking advantage and charging too much, but has that been a barrier? I think it's something that you know to, you need to know how to make use of it because it can...

It can be a barrier because just people can sometimes not take you seriously, but it can also be something very positive. Just to mention, especially now that we're having a lot of press in the UK interested in what we do. Usually when I tell them that I'm 24, they find it even better and they to talk about it even more. So that's just something that came into my mind because I was talking to...

a journalist yesterday and at the end of the interview, said, the way, she asked me how old I am, was like 24, and she was like, wow, that's great, and she wanted to write something about it. So, I mean, that can be a small positive. In terms of negative, I would say there is something negative, but it's not directly related to the venture.

You know, it's a lot of ups and downs of creating something and emotionally it's pretty hard. And again, we're still very much in the early days, so probably the hardest is to come, you have a life outside of, it's very difficult to realize it, but you have a life outside of your business. And probably that when you're young, you have a hard time.

realizing that you are not your business. business is not you. You're a person and that's a business. And obviously it's very important to me and it's a passion project and it's my life mission today. But I'm not reformed. I'm Right. And I live a pretty different life to my friends really who are all almost investment bankers in London. So you have to understand that

You're not better, you're not worse, but you're different. You're different and you have to learn how to accept it. That we're going to be at a great Saturday night dinner with all my friends. They're going to be thinking about what club we're going to afterwards. And I'm going to be super busy thinking about how can I improve that or how can I fix this problem. And that's something you cannot even expect your friends to understand. There is no way they will. But you learn.

you learn, think it was harder for me before. I still struggle to be totally transparent. Like, because I think we'll talk about it as well, but the end goal of this is just to feel happy and fulfilled. Like I mean, we'll talk about it as well. But what's funny is my friends think I'm obsessed with money just because I work a lot and I want to build stuff. But genuinely, I don't care about money. Like, obviously.

It feels better to have money. If you're free, you can do whatever you want, whenever you want. That's great. But then it felt like really money does not make you happy. So passion is the journey and the building and. It's the happiness of pursuit. Yeah. You know, we've all watched that movie, the pursuit of happiness. think it's not the pursuit of happiness, it's the happiness of pursuit. So it's just waking up every morning and.

dreaming and working towards your dream. And you're not sure, what's funny is that you're not sure what your dream is, because obviously I'm telling you, I want to create a global brand. What is a global brand? What does that mean? Who decides? Is there a judge who decides who's global or who's not? Obviously not, but it's just about feeling that you're moving in the right direction. What you consider is your right direction because that's very personal to each other.

And when it is such a big part of your life, you've described it as your current life mission, what do you do to switch off and to try and have that break and that barrier between work and switching off? Well, that's something I need to work on because I do it. I wouldn't say I'm sick of it and completely obsessed because my routine is still healthy. I exercise a lot and when I go to the gym, I completely forget about it.

I have a fantastic group of friends, I travel a lot, I cannot complain. So I do manage to balance that. But still, obviously, I would say that I think it's something I need to work on because...

It's specifically related to what I told you. You're not your business and your business is not you. And I think what hurts most entrepreneurs is when your business does not perform the way you want it to perform or does not achieve certain things. And it's going to happen. Like you're not going to be always exactly where you want to be. You're going to have setbacks. although it might sound like we're living a dream, we're not. We're

we've had some tremendous struggles in the past weeks to be honest and Enjoying your vacation because it was during during August when you have those problems Well, it's not easy. It's really not easy. So it's definitely something I I need to to learn from I would not say work on because can you really work towards that I think it's just getting used to it and

and working in other areas of your life. Life is not only business. You have to...

you have to fulfill all your other dreams because my dream is not only to create a global brand, I have many other dreams. Which I'm intrigued to hear about. So what other things have you got on the horizon and what things are in your life plans? Life plans? I don't plan. I wish I could, but I think you'll agree with me that if you plan life...

most of the time does not agree with your plan. Yeah, and it's easy to miss opportunities if you're too much and you can easily miss opportunities that come up. So I'm very much in that camp. Yeah, so I don't plan that much. I know, and that's on more personal note, that what makes me happy is making other people happy. Not only, of course, but I love having happy people around me. And some people would say, why do live in the UK then?

But I love the UK. I love the UK. was just a joke. But yeah, am. It might sound a bit old for me. People will just tell me you sound like a grandpa. But the more I get old, even though I'm still obviously very young, the more I realize that generally what makes you feel happy and fulfilled. I want to say feel fulfilled because happiness is a very, very subjective.

concept and it's a very human concept I think we've created but Feeling Fulfilled is about the simple things you know the the Phase of my life where I was making the most money were far from being the ones where I was the happiest and You know if you ask me What are the best souvenirs you have? The simplest moments in life. It's really

Stupid stuff you would say but it was not stupid. It meant so much and and In a way, you know when I talk this way because I know I'm very different different to my people were my age They would ask me okay, so if you think that that everything is about simple stuff, why do you do what you do? And it's not necessarily related That's what brings me that fulfillment but

I'm very much aware that even if reformed ends up being a hundred million, a billion dollar company, and if I find myself alone in a place where I do not want to be and just not surrounded by the people I want to surround with, I'll not be happy. Well, won't feel fulfilled, that's better said. So I'm very much aware of that. And I'm trying to balance everything out without planning because I've planned.

in the past and for the good, it didn't turn out as I planned, for the better to be honest. So I would say give your very best and giving your best does not mean trying your best one day out of two or even 99 % of the time. It means trying your best all day, every day, give your 100, 2000 % and then trust life, trust the process.

everything will not be as you wanted it to be. And I'm noticing already that sometimes it's even better than what I wanted it to be. It might not appear to be the case, let's say you're waiting for, let's give the most simple example, an exam, you're waiting for your mark and it's not what you wanted because you wanted to get into that university, but you're not able to. And that's actually something that happens to me. That's why I this idea.

I was supposed to go to UCL in London. And for some reason I got some trouble in my UCAS, which is the university platform thing in the UK. And for a stupid mistake, I was not able to go to UCL, so I had to go to work. And it's probably that, as I told you in the beginning of this interview, I would have not, I could not hope for better. It was probably...

the best experience any student can have and the best people have met and changed me so much in a positive way. So I was very unhappy when I got that decision, but it turned out to be for the better. So now I just try to trust as much as I can life, trust the process. Some people would call that God. Some people would call that something else. I'm happy with all definitions, but that's a very personal thing. So I would not judge anyone who has a different opinion to me. And I think we've just touched on the

being adaptable and just not planning too much. I know we've spoken and we've both had businesses through COVID which no one can plan for. And just I think having those rigid plans means you're not looking to adapt, not being able to pivot and change during those times with all that planning. I think myself, I'm definitely in similar camps yourself as just keeping open minded and look for those opportunities wherever they're coming from. In terms of your age as well, I think a great thing about

being 24 and having this experience, it's still having that curiosity which you have when you're younger and naivety which I know we've touched on and just not seeing those barriers as barriers and testing and pushing the boundaries or testing things out constantly. Do you think that's an area that's definitely worked for yourself? Of course, I think.

without being aware of it I act like I have nothing to lose because I have nothing to lose what do I have to lose? mean ok, reform doesn't work out as I wanted it to work out I'm 25 you have to restart most of the people start their careers at 25, 26 and not only with regards to work everything romantic relationships some

friends of ours might have, I mean, in my case, because we feel young, might have had girlfriends for five years and you think they're in the best romantic relationship ever. And from a date to another, they're not as happy. And then you think there is no one's here for you, but then you just meet someone that turns out to be the most important person in your life. So that's why I was saying, trusting the process. I mean, it's a very human thing to do to try to control everything.

Right. think it's a big problem of ours, really. But it's human. try. you know, I talk better than I act. want to specify. This is the way I try to live. But I'm human and I doubt, as I always said it. And sometimes I'm just like, no, this is not what I want. Why? Right. And then I manage to calm down and understand and get back to.

my right track, I specify mine, because again it's very personal and that's what works for me and that's what brings me peace. I find peace in realizing that I do not have control and everything, which again might sound a bit different from the you have to try your best all the time. Try your best and trust you do not control everything. Everything that you control, you have no excuse on not giving your

2000 % on what you control and what you do not control You're just losing your time and your energy If it's beyond your power and a lot of things in our lives that are beyond our power What can you do apart from? Trusting and that's what I tried to do. It's quite a resilient mindset to have and Especially at 24 years old, you know where that's come from. Is that from parents or is that just from your experiences? Or where do you think that comes from?

Well, I think I've had a pretty unconventional childhood, at least the way I experienced it. I felt it. Right. So I've. I don't want to sound like the typical entrepreneur who says I'm not like you, but I've always felt different genuinely and different does not mean a better or worse. I'm not intending to be superior to anyone. Obviously, there is that I do not even believe in that concept, but.

I've always felt, and it was a big problem of mine, to be honest. I used to put myself aside and think, why do I not live like they do? And I've had a childhood that was pretty different from what you would expect. I think I had very rough phase of my life where I did not feel good at all about myself. So that got me to...

learn a lot about myself and asking myself a ton of questions. You know, even religion is something of... I don't consider myself as a religious person. I mean, I'm not a religious person at all, but I try to be as spiritual in my own way as I want to. And then obviously my parents, well, my parents are very different from each other. And...

And I just learn from them a lot. I talk a lot with my father. He's a very smart person, very wise person. And I wouldn't say I see life in the same way does. We certainly don't. But obviously I love, you know, I get on better with people who are older than I am. Even my friends usually are older than me. And I like talking to what I call

like adults, they were really older. mean, experience is always good to understand their perspective. We all have different lives and perspectives. I love listening to other people, what they have to say, what they went through, how they interpret it. I might not agree, and most of the time I don't. But, you know, I like to observe and learn from other people's experiences.

What I wanted to ask about is, because this show is very much focused on people who are aspiring entrepreneurs, entrepreneurs already or are leading and managing businesses, for anyone that's aspiring to start their own business, is there a particular piece of advice that you think would be worthy of sharing? First thing I want to say is, genuinely, and it's again not because you're better or worse, but it's not for everyone. And when I say that is, you know,

The end goal is to feel fulfilled, right? Yeah. Well, a lot of people will not feel happy in this life of pure instability, especially in the early days, because it is pure instability is you go from one day thinking you're the king of the world to the next day thinking that you're going bankrupt or that everything is going bust and that everything you've done so far is meaningless. And that's a very difficult thing to deal with. And some people

In a way we all struggle with that, but some people deal with it way better than others so I think it's becoming a trend almost because to be an entrepreneur and Yeah, I have a lot of people telling me yeah, I want to start this this and that what do you think? I was like, yeah, of course the idea might be great But think about it twice like is it really the life you want to to be living if yes, go ahead It's a risk to take I would encourage anyone to start something I would not

it's great to work towards your dream, but make sure that's really your dream and not something that you want it to be your dream. Yeah, it's not giving into society pressure to be out there being honest with yourself. Like I say, it isn't for everyone and you've just highlighted there about risk of going bankrupt and losing everything. Is that something that you've experienced in your journey? Not so much, to be honest. Again, because I have not much to lose.

But I've been through difficult times in business. I've not been in times where I was either deciding and investing or having dinner. I don't want to be lying. I've never been through that. But I've been through very difficult times where I just doubted the whole process. Right? I told you that I try to trust, sometimes I don't. And sometimes I just feel like I'm...

What I'm doing is meaningless and no one cares. And you lie to yourself, right? We all have through that. A bit of imposter syndrome, really. Of course. Yeah. And that's a very good one. Sometimes things are going well and you say, well, is it because of my work that is going well or am I just lucky? We all go through that. And that's what I'm saying. You learn to believe in yourself.

Especially as a man, think. That's what I know at least. But as a man, think self -confidence is not something that is given. It's never given. know, some people might appear to believe in themselves. Trust me, if you don't prove yourself, not to other people, that doesn't really matter. But yeah, it's something that you need to gain and deserve from yourself.

Well, I absolutely love what Reformed are doing. think it's an amazing brand. I love the look of it. I think it's a great product. In terms of what is next for Reformed, what's on the horizon? What have you got coming up? Well, we've initially launched the coffees. That was the inaugural product. We have a matcha coming in next week, actually. And that's slightly different. mean, the core is the same at nutritional value without disturbing the essence of it.

That version is going to be with Marine Colleges and obviously it's a bit more feminine product. Usually matcha is more targeted towards a feminine audience. So that's being launched next week. have a very, very... I mean, by the time people will listen to this, it will already be out. But I'm very looking forward to that because I think there's definitely a huge market for it because the matcha market is already huge in the high streets.

but not yet at home. don't have, there is no brand, there is no brand that we all think of if we think of Matcha at home. So there's definitely something to do in there. And you know, I think it's very difficult as an entrepreneur, but you have to be patient and take it step by step. And with those two, three products, because the coffee comes in two different tastes, we can already do...

do fantastic things. So we are thinking of developing new products, of selling collagen supplements with not necessarily adding it to coffee or matcha or whatever. So that might be something that we do in the next few months. There is no specific decisions towards it for now. We're just focusing on having a very lean offering that has a large targetable, target addressable market.

And that's what we're focusing on at the moment. We're a subscription based mainly online business. We're launching in Selfridges in three weeks time, which is great again for a brand that is pretty early in the early days as we are. It's a pretty good achievement because I'm happy to see that we've been noticed by the people working there and they already appreciate what we do and they've tried the products obviously and

They loved it and they are giving us a chance when other brands that have been in here for years are not. So that's definitely something that boosts our confidence. Although I don't think that's what will create a tremendous difference in our everyday lives. It's just a great proof of trust in ourselves, a boost of confidence, as I said. We're partnering with

a lot of Pilates and yoga studios are reaching out to us. So we're going to be working with and collaborating with a lot of them worldwide, really. Most of them are in the UK, but we're starting to work with the most premium yoga and Pilates studio in Paris, which is called the Burning Bar. So we've already started actually collaboration with them. We're in contact with some of them are in Turkey. That's the most recent one.

And we'd love, as I told you, that's a dream of mine. It might not be something that we're looking to work on immediately, but, you know, I would love reformed to be a space, something, you know, not necessarily have a reformed cafe. This is not what I'm dreaming of, somewhere where people can share things. And I'm thinking just because now

being a collagen, mainly collagen based brand, a lot of people associate us to the wellness world, so yoga, pilates, all that stuff.

And The Burning Bar is looking to potentially open a space in London, so we would collaborate on that with them and have our name on the studio, that would be fantastic. But that's not the priority. I'm just mentioning that's something I really look forward to because I would love to create, again, a space where people share stuff. But as now, I think focus is really important.

not so many products. There's a huge market for coffee and for matcha, college in general. We can do a few millions in revenue just in one market in the UK, just using one channel if needed, or one main channel, I'd say. Maybe we can do some retail here and there, or maybe we can use other stuff. But focus and going step by step is crucial for us to move on to the next step, because once again, we're five months in.

You have to be patient. Well, there's a lot of exciting things coming up. If anyone wants to find out a bit more about your company and what you're doing, where's the best places to follow you? Well, obviously on social media, Instagram, TikTok, it's at feelreformed. Our website is feelreformed .com. you should be able to, I mean, especially when this will come out, you should have a couple of articles online.

telling more about my personal story and the story behind the brand. So I think people could find interest in reading those things. But yeah, especially on social media, we try to be very active on there. And there's a lot to come. We're working very hard to be the very best in there. But I've absolutely loved having you on today, Néon. I just want to say thanks for sharing your backstory, how you've got to where you are and a bit about your brand.

and where it's going next. I'm excited to keep an eye on it. So thank you very much for being on. Thank you so much. I really enjoyed it and maybe we'll have another episode in a couple of months or a couple of years time. I would love that. More updates. That's great. Thank you very much. Thank you so much.