Mastering the Art of Networking - Michael A. Forman

Jon Coogan (00:00.17)
of Desert Storm, a successful public speaker and he's known for his exceptional communication skills with expertise in the realm of networking. So he's also the author of the book Networking Unleashed and he's joined us today to talk about all things networking. So first off, thank you very much for being with us Michael and welcome to Mindset Mavericks.

Michael A Forman (00:20.6)
For having me, I'm glad to be here.

Jon Coogan (00:23.29)
Thank you. So, like I said, you've got a lot of knowledge, lot of experience in networking, just from that little excerpt there, I can say you've got quite a varied background, both in terms of networking, your book and some of the stuff from Desert Storm as well. So what I'd really like to is get to know yourself a little bit better and find out really, we're going to delve into all the networking side, but who is Michael and how did you end up where you are? So could you tell us a little bit about

Michael A Forman (00:53.78)
Well, I started, you know, when I was in the Air Force, I was in the Air Force for nine years and I had to learn how to order people, but I really don't. didn't want to order them, but tell people what to do that were older than I was. And that's a very difficult situation to be in. But I learned to do that. And then I went to I own pizzerias, restaurants.

I was in the mortgage field, the law field as a director. So I got to learn the networking all from different aspects and about I've been doing this for 30 years. So it's, can do it very well, but I've been talking about it for about the last 10 or 12 years off and on or on stages, off stages, but working full time.

with my mortgage and law and things like that. But it wasn't until about, I would say the pandemic that really showed me that people lost the art of communication. They lost the art of networking. And for you and I to talk on Zoom or Riverside or whatever, it doesn't matter. Okay, but we lost that human contact.

And that's so important. You know, it's so important to be able to look somebody right in the eye and shake their hand properly. So you get a feeling of that person. But you know what? It's only the beginning. OK, because from there, there are so many other steps. But if you do it correctly, it'll just increase. Besides your profit margin, it will.

make you feel better as a person.

Jon Coogan (02:52.162)
Yeah, I think there's already a lot of things I really want to explore with you just in that short little excerpt. So I think one of things you mentioned in particular was just having to direct people and give people orders and instructions that were older to you. So that's something I wanted to explore. What I'm quite interested in is, is that something you'd always wanted to do? what was your upbringing like? Was military kind of a driving force for you growing

Michael A Forman (03:19.319)
I was a completely different person before military and after after military. And, you know, it's really it's funny. When I was going through basic training and everything had to be perfect, you know, make my bed perfect. couldn't be a piece of lint anywhere, you know, and everybody told my family, it's going to change, Michael. And, you know, all these things didn't change me. You know,

Did what I had to do during that time then when I got off I was myself Okay, it was very very good but each business that I've been in and each business I've encountered added to my networking skills and It made me who I am

Jon Coogan (03:52.996)
Yeah.

Jon Coogan (04:09.912)
Okay. So yeah, that's really interesting. Can you tell us a little bit more about some of the skills that you did learn having to manage people who are older than you and you're there giving instructions? So what were some of the big lessons that you picked

Michael A Forman (04:22.369)
Some of the big lessons, but I told you already human contact. Okay. But you know what? Be kind, be courteous, be respectful. You know, I always say, look, there's a mantra. If they know me, like me and trust me, they're going to do business with me. Okay. But what do you have to do to do all that? You can't just be superficial. You have to really, you treat the janitor.

as well as the CEO with the same amount of respect. You don't know how that person got there. You don't know if he's the brother -in -law of the CEO. Okay. You know, he's there. He's a human being. Be polite. Be kind. You do networking in the grocery store. The people in line. Okay. Cause you have your ears open and if they are talking about something that you're familiar with.

You turn around and you say something. Okay. Be happy. Okay. You can't go around life with a frown. Okay. You have to be kind, be courteous, be respectful. It all comes back to

Jon Coogan (05:33.816)
Yeah, I think one of the things you just said was about treating everyone, whether it's CEO, whether it's a cleaner, janitor, or anything really resonates. Cause that's one of the things that I've really focused on every day. it's whoever those people are and whatever the jobs are doing, there's somebody that's enriching my life. I need somebody there to be taking the bins out. I need somebody to buy a ticket from at the cinema and whatever job you're doing, that's bringing joy and making your life enriched. So yeah, you should be treating everyone.

as you say exactly, as an equal.

Michael A Forman (06:05.163)
Absolutely. And one thing about the military, everybody wore BDUs, BDU, battle dress uniforms. didn't make a difference what color you were, where you came from or anything else. was one brotherhood. And if you can treat everybody with that amount of respect and courtesy, it would be a much better place.

Jon Coogan (06:29.872)
Certainly. So one of the things, again, you touched on was just about meeting somebody and chatting to somebody in line at the grocery store or wherever that may be. What is the first thing that you do when you meet someone? How do you build that connection? do you try and get that fast connection? often you only will get a few seconds.

Michael A Forman (06:52.717)
Well, you have to look the person in the eye. Okay. You have to let them know that you are confident in who you are. Okay. So it's different if you're meeting somebody in the line of a grocery store or in a networking event. Okay. Because two different things. One is you're just saying hello and being nice. And the other one, you have a mission. Okay. go and you meet somebody in a networking event. It is.

You look them in the eye, but you shake their hand firmly Not like a dead fish not like any you know shake it firmly and then you begin the process When you first walk up to a table in a network you listen You never talk Okay, that's the worst thing that anybody can do is they'll immediately start talking Okay, you listen to the conversation that's going on if you can be a participant an educated

participant, then you can give your two cents. Okay. But listen first. If it's not a conversation that you want or that you like, then you very politely bow out and you go to the next area. Okay. But let's say you go in and you hear and you say, okay, look, you know, I can give my two cents. Now you're walking in as the expert in your field. Okay.

So you go in and you have to really think about what you're going to say and then you give your two seconds. If it was interesting enough, then somebody up around that table say, can you say that a little bit? Can you tell me a little bit more about that? Sure. When you focus in on somebody, redirect the conversation to them. Have them start talking. People.

love to talk about themselves. OK, so you just do it and then you're entering the stage of building the rapport with that person. And that's the first thing, because if you remember the word form, F -O -R family, occupation, recreation, and really just a level, a meeting, a level where you can be with that person on any level.

Michael A Forman (09:17.071)
I used to be a baseball coach. did it for 16 years. Okay. So with youth sports, I can talk to anybody on any level because I became an umpire and everything else. So if you can talk to them, talk to them about soccer, about baseball. their son, John. Okay. Yeah. But he just got hurt running to first base and you know, whatever else. And that will come in handy later on.

when I go through the follow -up stages. But that's how you make that initial meeting.

Jon Coogan (09:53.794)
And just talking about those meetings, particularly around networking events. So I know you've talked about some of different things you can discuss and use form as your mnemonic there. But is there much planning that you would do to go into these kind of networking events? How much would you put into the preparation for doing these kind of networking events and trying to build those relationships?

Michael A Forman (10:19.001)
Well, there's not a whole lot of preparation, but what you can do is, you know, everybody gets a map of all the tables and all the networking events and everything has already listed. You know, there you can hone in on the companies that you want to visit or the people you want to speak with. Now, during the meeting event, you don't know who is who.

Okay, so you're to walk up to the table and you're going to start doing your thing. Okay. But when it comes to the event itself, you're going to be specific into the tables that you're going to go to and visit. They're only three or four hours long. Okay. If it's an all day event, then you have a little more time. But, one thing I say is you go to a networking event, you be early and you stay late. Okay. Because you want that full

and you want to get hold of everybody.

Jon Coogan (11:20.548)
Yeah, and just while we're talking about networking events, is there a particular dos and don'ts that you would suggest for networking events?

Michael A Forman (11:29.475)
Well, absolutely. The do's and do's are basically when you first meet somebody that I said, look them in the eye and hand, give them that firm handshake and listen. Don't talk, you know, flip that over. Okay. Because the worst thing you can do is somebody going to walk up to you and they're to look like this. Okay. They're going to look away from you and they're just going to shake your hand like, hello. How you doing? You know? Okay. And right there, you're going to say.

I don't want to talk with this person. You know, they let me know how to communicate with me, let alone tell me what they do. Okay, so I will move on to the next person. I was at a networking event and a guy came, we were talking, and a guy came walking up, had his business cards out, gave each one of us, about five people at the table, gave each one of us his business card, said, look, I want to talk to each one of you. My name is Lever Joe Schmo.

And I want to get with you, but give me your business cards and I'll contact you afterwards." And he left. And everybody was there looking at their business card like, you know, we all just took it and threw it out. OK, so, you know, be you have to treat your business cards as if they're money. You only give your business cards out to specific people. And listen, if you're doing your

correctly at the networking event, at the table, people will ask you for your business

Jon Coogan (13:02.446)
Yeah. Yeah. One of the things that can be quite tricky, I know there's a few tips there about making sure that you make eye contact, being confident in your approach and knowing what you want to express in that conversation. But there can certainly be difficulties if people are introverted, for example, and I think extroverts can face some different issues. Is there tips or tools that you would suggest, things that could help an introvert make those connections and really push those boundaries

Michael A Forman (13:29.131)
you

Jon Coogan (13:31.78)
force themselves to get into this networking.

Michael A Forman (13:34.477)
You know, it's funny, the last four or five podcasts I've been on, they've all asked me about introverts. Apparently that's a big thing in the networking event is what if I'm an introvert and I want to go to networking events? I work inside sales and I'm good on the phone and everything, but in large amounts of people, I'm no good. It's very simple. Now I told you I was in the Air Force. So I'm going to use a term.

Wingman, okay you if i'm an introvert and I have a friend who's an extrovert I'm gonna bring them along with me now. They have to know About me about my company and what I sell Okay, so I always say go to networking events alone By yourself because you don't want to share these people with anybody Okay, but here's the exception to the norm. You're gonna bring your wingman

Okay, so what's what's going to happen? Well, you'll walk up to a table and I'm already shy and I don't know what to do. But my wingman is an extrovert. Okay. And they are going to listen for the conversation and they are going to pick and choose the opportunity to put in something that I do. So now if the conversation will go around to something I do, because, you know, something

Michael happens to be a professional in this field. What do you feel about that? And then that gives me the opportunity to talk. Okay, so now that's gonna help me come out of my shell, figuring about three or four hours, let them sit with you at a table, go to different tables, go to different booths and things like that. It's not gonna go away the first time, but I'm gonna be better.

And not the second time, maybe the third time or the fourth time. I won't need them at all, but I will have gotten there slowly but surely.

Jon Coogan (15:41.966)
was coming on to one of my next questions, which was around nurture and nature and how much of how much of these communication skills can actually be taught and how much of it's innate.

Michael A Forman (15:51.927)
Well, in my book, okay, networking unleashed, it's kind of like a step by step and you know a lot of it. Okay. A lot of it is just common sense, common decency, common courtesy. Okay. But it's knowing what to do at certain steps. You know, you can be the best person and you can introduce yourself and you can have a great talk with one another.

But if you don't follow up, then you might as well not even have gotten it gone there at all unless you're going there just for a night out. Okay. So, but unless you follow it up correctly, because some people go back home, they send an email and they wait. Look through the thumbs. I can't believe a person hasn't talked to me. They haven't discussed anything with me. I'm going to go. I'm not going to go to a networking event again.

Okay, there's a proper way after you meet them certain things you do with their business card certain follow -up procedures and In in in my book I go through a certain procedure for the next two weeks how to follow

Jon Coogan (17:05.914)
Okay. One of the things you have touched on was, like I talked about nature and nurture, and we've talked about optimism, sorry, but extroverted or introverted. Do you see any pitfalls of being extrovert when it does come to communication or networking events? Is there specific things that as an extrovert you should be looking out for or being aware

Michael A Forman (17:28.855)
Sure. You know, if you're an extrovert, listen, I'm I'm happy. I love to speak with people. And the worst thing that I can do is I'm going to walk up to a table. I'm going to start talking. OK, I love to talk. OK, the worst thing I can do. So I have to control myself. I'm going to walk up to a table. I'm going to shut up. OK, I'm not going to say a thing. That's difficult for me. OK, because I love to talk.

Jon Coogan (17:56.634)
Yeah.

Michael A Forman (17:58.423)
Okay. So I'm going to go up. I'm going to listen for that conversation. And I'm just going to add my two seconds. So now, you know, you're, you're a 32nd elevator pitch. You have that all memorized. And he's like, I'm just waiting for somebody to ask me what I'm doing. Okay. Throw that out the window. Okay. Because your 32nd elevator speech should be five seconds. Okay. Listen, I help professionals.

network and communicate more effectively and efficiently. Okay, that was five seconds. Now that's just enough for somebody to say, could you explain that a little bit further? Could you tell me a little bit more about it? Something like that. that provides my introduction. Okay. So that's all that, that 30 second elevator speech is supposed to do is just to have the other person ask you that question.

Jon Coogan (18:56.4)
And I think particularly with all the social media and, and TikToks and the video feeds we're seeing on social media, you've hit it on nail on the head there. It's literally those first few seconds. If you haven't caught them and got their attention in five to 10 seconds, you've missed the opportunity. Yeah. Yeah, completely. So if, as well as attending networking events, what things can you suggest that would help somebody build their network?

Michael A Forman (19:11.533)
You lost. Yep, you lost. Absolutely.

Michael A Forman (19:25.165)
Well, if you build your network properly, because remember you're going out to these networking events, you're not trying to find, not trying to build clients. You're trying to build relationships. And I always say the difference between a client and somebody who you build a relationship with is if you see them in the supermarket and you see it's a client of yours, Hey Joe, how you doing? yeah, great. Okay. But if it's a relationship.

somebody who you've talked to and say, that's right. John, I mean, or Stan, how's your son doing? Well, he was playing soccer, wasn't he? And did it hurt his leg? You know, and you start that conversation. That's building the relationship because the relationship you're going to have forever. But a client you just have until the next sale.

Jon Coogan (20:19.024)
Yeah, again, very good, good point. think as you've touched on there, if somebody's been with for an accountant, for example, for 10 years, what is it that's going to make that person switch to you? Or if they've had their website hosted with somebody for 10 years, how are you going to win that business? What incentive have they got switched to you? And it's those things that you've spoken about. So knowing them, knowing their family, bit about what they're up to, what their business does. it's exactly.

Michael A Forman (20:45.335)
It's all customer service. It's all service.

Jon Coogan (20:49.296)
because people, as you said, buy from people. And yeah, that's exactly it. So I think it is very much.

Michael A Forman (20:55.425)
Listen, people love to buy, but they hate to be sold to.

Okay, so it's a very tight rope.

Jon Coogan (21:07.534)
Yeah. And with that in mind, what's one of the, or some of the things you can do to build trust? Because I think everyone's skeptical now. There is always scams everywhere. You see in the news every day of all the bad news and things that people having their money stolen and people do seem very distrustful. And I think that's kind of enhanced with COVID as well, where you've lost that face -to -face meetings and people became a bit more insular. So how can you build

Michael A Forman (21:33.561)
Well, you do that right in the beginning, right when you're building that rapport after you've had the talk and they're talking about themselves and say, well, tell me about your business and what you do. And of course they love to talk about themselves and talk and say, you know something, I like your business so much. How can I be the best referral source for you? How can I help you? How can I be the best?

salesmen for you. Now I haven't told them anything that I do. I haven't told them, asked them to do anything. You have to have the mindset of going to a networking event to give, not to get. Don't go thinking you're going to make a thousand sales. Okay. But you're going to go thinking I'm going to be a salesperson for the next 15 businesses. Okay. So that's really one way.

Where they're going to say, really? You know, okay. What do you do? And then you see that they're asking you for the information. And that's when you exchange the business cards and everything else. And here's, I'm kind of jumping the gun here a little bit, but you know, you take their business card, you write down the date, the name of the function and something that you spoke about. Because when I'm following

All that information is going to come in very handy. But what happens in two months, I'm going through all the business cards that I've gotten and I pick up this card and say, I know him. Where do I know him from? Turn it over. Name everything else. And what you spoke around to. yeah. Okay. But that will come in when you begin your follow -up because your follow -up is just as important, if not more important than meeting him personally.

Jon Coogan (23:30.784)
But yeah, think that's a really good idea and it's definitely something I'd be taking away. So whether it is like say writing on a business card or even having a spreadsheet or notes on your phone, there's so many ways to do it now. And it's just those little snippets of information, which is going to help build those relationships, build that trust, showing that you've remembered who they are and a little bit about that person. So I think that's a brilliant tip that I'll be using in future. So something I would like to talk about is just communication in leadership really. I think there's traditionally been a lot of

Michael A Forman (23:52.899)
Good.

Jon Coogan (24:01.108)
the kind of ethos has been don't be vulnerable as a leader. You're the one that making decisions. You're the one who's essentially directing people what to do and be a boss, leave your problems at the door. Is that something you have seen yourself or that all that you buy into or what's your view on

Michael A Forman (24:23.055)
There's a difference between being a boss and a leader. Okay. And I used to give an example. If you have ever seen the movie, the 10 commandments. Okay. And you see Moses at the, at at the sea, he goes in and he opens the sea and he leads his people through and Ramesses comes up behind him.

Says okay everybody go get him. He stays up on a perch and let's all his people go So there is the main difference between just a boss and a leader Okay, a leader knows how to listen Listen to his people. Okay and say you know what? Okay. Wait a second. That's a good idea. Let's explore that Okay, so they're again very very

minor differences, but major differences. Because if all of a sudden, you know, a person in the group and on your sales team says, you know what, he listened to me and he's exploring my idea. Well, that increases their confidence level. And if you increase the confidence level, listen, you should be able to have every one of your sales team take over your position. Okay.

You have to be confident enough to lead them. But if you're gone for a week, it should continue. Everything should continue like clockwork. You come back and you don't want them to say, well, I didn't miss you at all, but you would still want them to have the confidence to go

Jon Coogan (26:06.074)
Yeah, I think something I've certainly tried to put into my team that I've led is it's meaning safety and resources. And that is all those things you're talking about there. It's, meaning, it's empowering those people to make decisions. It's letting them know, like you say, you're, you're steering the ship, but everyone else is actually running it. And it's just making sure that your team do have meaning there. Feel valued opinions, listen to, they've got safety.

psychological safety to speak up if they feel that something needs doing or needs should be doing differently, or if they want to. It's kind of challenge one of your decisions, but they need that safety and the resources to be able to do that. So I think that very much taps into what I try and do in my teams. Is that something you've experienced yourself though as a leader? What do you think about the leaders that you've worked with in the past? Certainly in the military, can imagine it's quite, it can be a very demanding very much.

this decision, this is what we're doing. But is that the real life experience or what was your experience of leaders?

Michael A Forman (27:10.391)
I've had them both ways. I've had them both ways. I've had the bosses and I'm going to use the term boss instead of a leader because that's what they were. Came in, told us what to do and left. Okay. And even when upper management told them to get involved, they got involved the minimum amount and they left. Okay. But I was also, I was

Michael A Forman (27:39.721)
I really enjoyed the leaders that I've had in different businesses. I recently moved down from New York to Georgia. And, you know, I took a job, I managed the golf department in Dick's Sporting Goods. And the store manager that we had, was a multi -level store and had

You know, a thousand different employees, but he took the time he made it. You think that he was right there on the front lines with you. Okay. So when he said, tell your team, have to do this. He's he was right there also for those questions and things like that. He didn't just bark the orders and leave. Okay. And he turned out being a friend more than a leader.

You know, that's the way you want it. You want somebody who has your back. I used to, when I was in the Air Force, they said the worst thing you can do is not make a decision. Okay. Because the supervisor above me, he said, look, you have to make a decision, right or wrong. You're going to have to make a decision. If you're right, good, we're going to go with it. If you're wrong, we're going to back you

Okay. And instilled that bit of confidence and I was a police officer. Okay. So I really had to make sure that my decisions were correct. but that was just the beginning of my, my client.

Jon Coogan (29:21.378)
Okay. And is there a certain experience that you've had that have kind of shaped the way that you've led? So you've said about a good example there. Is there things that have kind of sparked an innate feeling in you that's made you think, I never want to lead like that? Have you had some of those experiences? I think you've said you've had some good and bad experiences, just shared a good

Michael A Forman (29:41.559)
Yeah, yeah, well every bad experience, you know, it's in the back of my mind. I'm going okay check. That's something that I'm not going to do That's that's what I'm gonna do. And if you get enough of those effects and if you get into that position of management supervisory or or Above then you have to as long as you can recall everything that you don't want to be then you're

doing well. So, you know, I was a manager, a supervisor, I was a director, I was the owner of businesses, and I had to remember everything that I remember, I had to remember all of the bad as well as the good and try not to do the bad. Now nobody's perfect. You know, I did some bad things also. That's me. But I try not to and I try and if I do something like that, I try

redo it, you know, make good on it. That's all.

Jon Coogan (30:46.244)
It's good to see you've had experience at all those different levels too, because I think a lot of our audience said they might be, for example, aspiring founders of businesses or aspiring to be executives of large multinational corporations. And from all levels really, from people who are still going for university, learning a craft. So do you feel there is a difference in style of communication depending on where you are? So things that you would differ?

Michael A Forman (31:14.031)
Well, yes, you know, lot of the, keynote speeches, the breakout sessions that I talk about involves all of that. I'm doing a workshop, I think in Ohio, coming up very soon. And I'm going over all of these tactics, but it's not a room full of just salesmen. It's the business owners as well. Okay. Because if you can't do

How can you expect, if you can't do it for your company, how can you expect somebody to do it for you, for your company? So you have to have all of that, you have to have that mindset. And it's very interesting, very good. And I think you'll be better as a person when you come out of

Jon Coogan (32:03.64)
Okay. So I touched on some of the things you do do. So I know you've mentioned obviously your book and you do workshops as well. So what things are you offering as a service to learn a bit more about networking and where we can go and develop some of these skills?

Michael A Forman (32:17.485)
While I do keynote speeches, I do breakout sessions, workshops, I coach one on one and I do virtual workshops as well. You can get all this information. Just go to my website, Michael A Foreman dot com. And on there, you'll see my book. You'll even have an abridged version of my book. put that I put the sell of my book and I put in a bridge version.

On the website for free that you can take these away. Okay, so my my giveaway One thing is that go onto my website and just download that that one. It's about half the book Just the highlights. but if you just take that and implement it, you'll do wonders

Jon Coogan (33:08.496)
Fantastic. Just touching on that actually, somebody did say virtual workshops and obviously today we're doing a remote podcast as well. And a couple of years ago, that just wasn't a thing. Zoom wasn't around. You didn't have all these remote recordings that we do now. It's the things that we can do specifically related to online meetings that can boost that communication. You don't get that same feeling as being face to face where you can look in somebody's eyes. What things can we do differently?

Michael A Forman (33:36.023)
Okay, virtual is very, very different than in -person networking. It's up to the host to make it interactive. Okay, listen, I've been on a lot of webinars and all they've, know, the saying, okay, look, look over here. This is what we did. This is the way you should do every once in a while. hit the button to raise your hand because, and that's all they ask. Okay. You want

ask questions to your to your people. know, who does this? you did. Joe, you do that. OK, how do you do that? OK, what do you do that's different than what I'm teaching? Because it might be better, might be worse, but it's going to show that interactivity and you inject humor. OK, you can't be there stone faced. But it doesn't work. OK, I listen.

I consider myself a funny person, funny looking, I don't know, but you know, funny person. And I inject humor. It's just about everything that I do. But listen, if you are not humorous, if you're not funny, don't do it. That's the worst thing, because you can always tell when somebody is forcing that joke, and it's more funny that they're forcing the joke than the joke itself. OK, so that's the difference.

Jon Coogan (34:38.606)
Hehehe.

Jon Coogan (35:03.76)
Yeah, just because we're talking about your expertise in networking, you've been at this for 30 odd years now, it's a long time. Are there things that you're doing now to try and keep increasing and improving your knowledge around networking? What things do you do yourself to try and get even better at communicating than you currently

Michael A Forman (35:24.099)
Well, for me, it's it's self education. OK, so I'm constantly reading, I'm constantly seeing videos and seeing how people act. I'm seeing what to do with your hands. I was watching a commercial with my wife and I like watch this guy. OK, he put his hands like this and he put him down here like this because that's called a power move.

He doesn't know what to do with his hands. So he's just putting his hands down. So I pick up on all these little things. I find it funny. But now, of course, my wife hits me every time. goes, because that's all she can look at is what people are doing with their hands and things like that. So I have to try to work out where when I'm standing in front of people, what am I doing with my hands? OK, because I don't want them to just hang down by my

I don't want to put one hand in my pocket like, hey, how you doing? You know, I have to really figure out something to do with my hand. So I'm constantly trying to improve what I'm doing. I'm always improving what I'm talking about, what I'm saying. And I'm doing that by reading, watching videos. And I go out and I talk. I talk with people in my neighborhood. You know, they all know what I do already. You know, so I, I, I,

talk about that interactivity and you'd be surprised at where the information comes from. Okay, it can be from a 14 year old kid that you're talking to and out of the mouth of babes, know, comes a sparks an idea. And I may introduce that into one of my talks.

Jon Coogan (37:10.308)
Yeah, I think that's it really. It's just being open to any and all sources. But I think a really nice segue you've just introduced as well there. We've talked a lot about communication in terms of one -on -one or group settings, whether it's networking events in the grocery store and with your public speaking experience. Is there particular tips that you can give us around public speaking and the body language? Because I think that's so much part of the communication as well, which we've not really spoken much about yet.

Michael A Forman (37:37.775)
Well, the body language is key because you don't want to sit there with your arms folded and up there because that means you're a very closed person. OK, you're to be a little more gregarious with public speaking. It really it doesn't depend on how many people are in the audience. Listen, I've talked to people with with hundreds of people in the audience and I've talked to people where there are 10. OK, so the amount I change the

In my voice, changes when I'm speaking lower or higher, when I'm speaking to the people in the back or I'm speaking just to the people in the front. Okay. So you have to figure that part out. But all of this would be for naught. Okay. Because let's say you did everything you could, even besides the public speaking, we just jumped back to the networking event. Okay.

Let's say you gathered all the cards, you gathered everything. And I wanted to make this point because it will definitely make a difference to anybody who was listening. The follow up, the follow up is so important. Okay. So after you go to the networking event, you come back home. I spoke with somebody and they said, I always wait till the next morning and I send out emails and everything else. I said, because I've already set mine out. Okay.

So when you get back, you write down the email, hey, Joe, glad to meet you on this date at such and such an event. We spoke about your son, John. He heard himself playing soccer. Sorry to hear that. Hope to speak with you soon, Mike. I didn't put what I did. I didn't put a date I want to talk to him. Nothing like that. It was just a thank you email. That sets me up for the next day. The next day.

I take out a thank you note. I write a handwritten thank you note. Okay. Nobody thinks of this anymore. Hey, Tom, I saw you on this date, such and such this event. I've spoke to you about your son, Johnny. I'm sorry. He hurt his leg. I hope to have a cup of coffee with you soon. Now I introduced a cup of coffee in the note and I sent that off. So

Michael A Forman (40:03.055)
If they were a decent person, they will have contacted you by email or anything else. Some people actually call, but that's a different story. All right. So let's say that they still have, you wait about three days, no response. Now that thank you note increased your response rate to about 80%. Okay. But let's say they still haven't talked because they could be busy. They can be on vacation and they can, anything. Give them another email.

Hey, Johnny, how are you? is my, saw you on such and such a date, such a time. You know, I spoke about you some Johnny. I was looking at my calendar and I see I'm free Tuesday or Wednesday of next week for a cup of coffee. How's Tuesday? And send that off. Positive or negative, you want a response. OK, so you're going to wait another three days. And if

falls out on a Friday or something. You're right. Almost the same thing. Listen, I hope you have a great weekend. That kind of gives them the weekend to do it. Now you're up to about 95%. Most people, most people will answer you positively or negatively. Doesn't really matter. Okay. But for those 5%, even 10 % that don't respond at all, you really didn't want anyway. You put them into your,

put on your mailing list and start a drip campaign. Okay. But you should get some sort of response, some sort of response from all of that follow up. But that is so important, so important from the networking event. And that goes into public speaking also, because if I'm, if I'm hired to go speak at a conference, even if it's a breakout session.

I'm going to give the event manager a handwritten thank you note and thank them for their time. It goes such a long way and people don't get thank you notes anymore. So it does. It goes even further.

Jon Coogan (42:12.772)
Yeah, I think that's such good advice. for so many reasons, think partly, like I say, that's just a little bit unique now to get something handwritten. It doesn't happen. And I think the other thing people need to be conscious of is it's quite easy to think I've sent one message. They're not interested. Going to give it up. But actually having that communication, people do lead busy lives. They've got appointments, they've got work schedules, family, everything else. Give that opportunity. It's one.

If you're contacting three times maybe, it's just keeping your name in their mind. Even if it's not now, it might come up later. Five times.

Michael A Forman (42:49.241)
Five times. Five times. It's if they don't because the normally a person does not respond to you. It's like the fifth touch. OK, it takes that long. But then once you get them to respond, they're becoming that that not that that client, not that.

that sales pitch, okay, that's starting that relationship and start your whole

Jon Coogan (43:22.212)
Yeah, I can attest to being guilty of that as well. Receiving a message thinking, I'll respond to that later or it might not be the right time, but that continued contact, somebody showing interest and continued interest, they're the ones at the top of the list when you think, actually now is what I need. I need a person to do this job. And that name's right there with the tip of your

Michael A Forman (43:43.65)
Exactly.

Jon Coogan (43:44.782)
So yeah, no, there's been some really good advice and some that I'll definitely be taking away with me. I particularly like the idea of making a note of who you're speaking to, what are the personal facts, what event was it at, what date is it, and doing those personal follow -ups. That's something I'm definitely going to be trying to be a bit more conscious of myself. What I'd just like to finish off really with Michael is just a couple of your kind of best takeaways.

from this session on network. there's something you think our listeners, if there's one thing you should be taking away going forward into your lives, whether it's business or personal, what would that

Michael A Forman (44:23.883)
I'll give you three. Okay. Because they're, very, very important. Eye contact, shake their hand firmly and confidently. And when you start to follow up, remember that follow up note, that handwritten note. Okay. Because one is just as important to the other and nothing is better than when they're sitting in their office and they all of sudden they receive a thank you note and they say, what's this?

to thank you note for that networking event that I just went to. It's a huge splash.

Jon Coogan (44:59.344)
Perfect. So now thank you very much for time today. Again, you've said that we can find you on your website. You've got your, bridged version of the book and obviously your full book, which is available to purchase at the moment. And just to confirm your website address, it's www .michaelaforman .com. Have I got it right? Fantastic.

Michael A Forman (45:18.031)
That's correct. And there's a contact form. There's a contact form that anybody can fill out and I'll get back with them within a

Jon Coogan (45:27.738)
Brilliant. That's great. Thank you very much for time. Really appreciate it. And I can't wait to have this episode going out live. Thank

Michael A Forman (45:35.577)
Thank you.