Unlocking Innovation: How IdeaScale’s CEO Turns Ideas into Impact with Nick Jain

Jon Coogan (00:01)
Welcome to Mindset Mavericks. I'm your host, Jon Coogan. And today I'm here with Nick Jain. So welcome very much, Nick. Thank you so much for having me, Jon. Yes, great to have you here. I'm going to give the audience a bit of a background, just who you are. So it'll literally be a couple of sentences and I'll you to give a brief introduction about the business that you're CEO of as well. So you're here today. We're diving into a very question around every great advancement in the world starts with a single question and that's how we can do it better.

Nick J (00:07)
Thank you so much for having me, Jon.

Jon Coogan (00:29)
I know your company, IdeaScale, is very much around innovation, improvement, and I really want to get a few ideas about what you actually do. What does IdeaScale do? Sure. So we've been around about 15 years. We are the largest innovation specific software company on the planet, working with large organizations, Pfizer, Comcast, et cetera. We're like their innovation operating system. We have several different modules, but the module that we are most well known for

Nick J (00:42)
Sure, so we've been around about 15 years. We are the largest innovation specific software company on the planet, working with large organizations, Pfizer, Comcast, et cetera. We're like their innovation operating system. We have several different modules, but the module that we are most well known for is an idea collection and management system. So this is something that allows a large organization to reach out to everyone in their ecosystem. That could be their employees, their customers, their shareholders, anyone who cares about them. Submit ideas.

Jon Coogan (00:56)
is an idea collection and management system. So this is something that allows a large organization to reach out to everyone in their ecosystem, that could be their employees, their customers, their shareholders, anyone who cares about them, submit ideas for, how can this organization be better? It could be new products, new snacks in the kitchen, new mascots, anything fun or anything serious. And then people upload and downvote the ideas resulting in the best ideas floating to the top. So you could think of it as almost like a TikTok.

Nick J (01:09)
for hey, how can this organization be better? It could be new products, new snacks in the kitchen, new mascots, anything fun or anything serious. And then people upvote and downvote the ideas resulting in the best ideas floating to the top. So you could think of it as almost like a TikTok for ideas instead of for silly dance videos. And obviously then we take the best ideas and help you turn them into reality, into actual things in the real world.

Jon Coogan (01:24)
for ideas instead of for silly dance videos. And obviously then we take the best ideas and help you turn them into reality, into actual things in the real world. No, I absolutely love that. And I think it is one of those things that you never know where a good idea is going to come from. If it's in the shower, just a chat by the water  for example. So I think that's a great innovation in itself. So I'm really, really interested to hear bit more about that as we talk. I did want to speak about a few things other things do with yourself. I know you're Harvard Business School graduate.

You've been a vocal advocate for Gen.ai before it was popular. And you also got quite a few diverse hobbies as well. Suddenly you're into running, battle rap, reading classic literature like Moby Dick and Paradise Lost, et cetera. And you're a poker player. So yeah, quite a diverse background. I'm quite interested to find out as we go through this discussion how those intersect with business and your role as a CEO. Sure. So what I want to do, talking about that.

Nick J (02:19)
Sure. Yeah.

Jon Coogan (02:24)
The fact you are a literary enthusiast. I'll a quick fire round as well, a few questions. And the first question I'm going to fire off with is what's one book that's shaped your way of thinking? Could you repeat that, please? Yeah. What's one book that's shaped your way of thinking? Evaluation by Aswad Dhammadharan. He's a professor at NYU. He's considered the godfather of modern valuation of Wall Street theory. His book tells you how businesses

Nick J (02:31)
Sure, please go for it.

Could you repeat that, please?

Valuation by Aswath Damodaran, he's a professor at NYU. He's considered the godfather of modern valuation or Wall Street theory. His book tells you how businesses make money and why some businesses suck and some businesses are extraordinary in a very analytical way, but requiring only high school level or eighth grade math.

Jon Coogan (02:52)
make money and why some businesses suck and some businesses are extraordinary in a very analytical way but requiring only you know high school level or eighth grade math. Fantastic and is there one particular takeaway that you can think of that comes to mind when you think of that book?

Nick J (03:09)
it is that every business can actually be quantified. People talk about Uber versus McDonald's, these are very different businesses, but they can all be boiled down to the same mathematical way of thinking, which is really insane that you can take a shoe business, a food business, a major tech company, and they can all be boiled down in pretty much the same way.

Jon Coogan (03:09)
It is that every business can actually be quantified. You know, people talk about, you know, Uber versus McDonald's. These are very different businesses, but they can all be boiled down to the same like mathematical way of thinking, which is really insane that, you know, that you can take a shoe business, food business, a major tech company, and they can all be boiled down in pretty much the same way. Fantastic.

And sticking with the mindset theme, I wanted to ask you, what's the first thing you do in the morning to set your mindset up for the day? Do you have a morning routine? So almost every morning I work out, that could be a run with the local running club. That could be just, you know, lifting some, I have some basic weights in the house, something physical, right? And if I'm feeling lazy, it could be popping on a sweater. It's cold outside. I'll go for a walk. Something physical, even before I eat, even before I shower, just getting, getting my...

Nick J (03:40)
So almost every morning I work out, that could be a run with the local running club, that could be just, you know, lifting some, I have some basic weights in the house, something physical, right? And if I'm feeling lazy, it could be popping on a sweater, it's cold outside, I'll go for a walk, something physical, even before I eat, even before I shower, just, yeah, getting my body moving.

Jon Coogan (04:01)
my body moving. So is that a long standing thing that you've done or is it a new thing that you've embraced? Where's that come from? So I've been doing this more or less since I was around 14 years old. So what is that over 20 years now? Now there have been periods in life where I got lazy and broke the habit, but always sometimes, you know, I'll break the habit for a couple of months of the year. And then be like, I feel bad about myself and I feel so much better as a human being and so much better like physically.

Nick J (04:09)
So I've been doing this more or less since I was around 14 years old. So what is that? Over 20 years now. Now there have been periods in life where I got lazy and broke the habit, but always sometimes, you know, I'll break the habit for a couple of months of the year and then be like, I feel bad about myself and I feel so much better as a human being and so much better like physically if I keep that as part of my routine. So I've tried to keep it for most of last 20 years.

Jon Coogan (04:27)
if I'm keeping that as part of my routine. So I've tried to keep it for most of last 20 years. Yes, it has so many benefits to it. And it's, I think for me, certainly working out is one of two things. You either get that space to run through the ideas in your head and try and process whatever those thoughts are, or it's a time to completely switch off and you forget everything, just have a bit of space and just have it as a bit of a reset button. So now I definitely, definitely understand where you're coming from on the exercise in the morning.

Come to the question. So what's the mindset myth you think needs to be debunked? Is there something that comes to mind? Sure. I think a lot of people attribute success to extraordinary talent that, someone just has, you know, a genius mathematician or a genius artist, or I think people underappreciate that the most talent or most successful people in almost any field of endeavor, professional sports, business, science, just work their butts off. Right? Like I think people underappreciate.

Nick J (05:01)
I think a lot of people attribute success to extraordinary talent that hey someone just has you know a genius mathematician or a genius artist or I think people underappreciate that the the most talent or most successful people in almost any field of endeavor professional sports business science just work their butts off right like I think people underappreciate Just how much brute force and effort what I call grind goes into success in any field of endeavor, right? Everyone sees LeBron Jain, know just crushing at the NBA

Jon Coogan (05:21)
just how much brute force and effort, what I call grinds goes into success in any field of endeavor, right? Everyone sees LeBron Jain, you know, just crushing at the NBA. People didn't see him, you know, at five in the morning when he was in high school shooting two pointers or doing drills, right? No one saw the thousands and thousands of hours that he put in. Yeah. And I'd imagine being a CEO is where you probably had to work very hard to get to that position and to actually get to CEO. Can you think of a big failure that's come to

Nick J (05:31)
People didn't see him at five in the morning when he was in high school shooting two pointers or doing drills, right? No one saw the thousands and thousands of hours that he put in.

Jon Coogan (05:50)
come to mind and what has taught you on your journey to becoming CEO? Sure. So I failed at many things in my life. You mentioned Harvard earlier. I actually did not get into Harvard initially. I had to run a very big campaign to try and convince people to get me in. Number two, I've started a hedge fund that failed miserably and kind of derailed my career. That was right before COVID too, so terrible time to have a business failure.

Nick J (05:55)
Sure, so I failed at many things in my life. You mentioned Harvard earlier. I actually did not get into Harvard initially. I had to run a very big campaign to try and convince people to get me in. Number two, I've started a hedge fund that failed miserably and kind of derailed my career. That was right before COVID too, so terrible time to have a business failure. Ideascale, while I was doing well, there've been ups and downs. There've been projects that have failed.

Jon Coogan (06:17)
know, Ideascale, while it's doing well, have been ups and downs. have been projects that have failed. At Ideascale, the big marketing campaign I personally ran on Google Ads has absolutely failed. It was our worst marketing campaign ever, and we caused the stack to just shut down on Google Ads. So tons of failures along the way. The goal, obviously, is, or my philosophy in life is, failures are normal. You run in lots of experiments. You just want to create failures that don't blow up the company or your life along the way.

Nick J (06:22)
My, my, an idea scale, the big marketing campaign I personally ran on Google ads has absolutely failed. was our worst marketing campaign ever. And we caused us to actually just shut down our Google ads. So tons of failures along the way. The goal obviously is, or my philosophy in life is failures are normal. You run in lots of experiments. You just want to create failures that don't blow up the company or your life along the way. Right. You're going to fail, but hopefully failing in a way that doesn't, you know, destroy your life.

Jon Coogan (06:46)
Right. You're going to fail, but hopefully failing in a way that doesn't, you know, destroy your life. Right. Or end the company. Yeah. I think one thing you mentioned there was about teach or treating failures in the experiment, which I think is brilliant. It's not a failure. It's not a success. Yeah. That's you do inside. Yeah. Like you run an experiment in science and the experiment may come out positive or negative, but even if it comes out negative, it's not a failure. You learn something that for us, and that informs the next experiment.

Nick J (06:51)
right? Or end the company.

Yeah, I'm a scientist by training, right? Like you run an experiment in science and the experiment may come out positive or negative, but even if it comes out negative, it's not a failure. You learn something that informs the next experiment. And that's actually how we run ideas. We run lots of experiments here, marketing experiments, product experiments, engineering experiments. And if they fail, it's okay. We shut that off and think about the 20 successes we had along the way, not the 10 failures.

Jon Coogan (07:13)
And that's actually how we run ideas, but we run lots of experiments here, marketing experiments, product experiments, engineering experiments. And they could, if they fail, it's okay. We shut that off and move, you know, think about the 20 successes we had along the way, not the 10 failures. And one thing that makes me think about, one of the emotions come to mind is resilience. When you're talking about those failures, that feels like you've had quite a few challenges and quite a few things to overcome. So what is it that makes you keep getting back up after a failure? How do you not?

Withdraw and think that's it. That's the end of whatever the endeavor is Sure, I'd say two Two things number one is a strong support network I have a very supporting wife that you know When I took that when I attempted to start a hedge fund She was there for me both before during and after my parents have always been there for me And I think they valued me as a person regardless of whether I'm rich or poor successful fat skinny, right? Like they value me as a human being and that gives me a tremendous sense of self-worth that extends beyond

Nick J (07:47)
Sure, I'd say two things. Number one is a strong support network. I have a very supporting wife that, you know, when I took that, when I attempted to start a hedge fund, she was there for me both before, during, and after. My parents have always been there for me. And I think they value me as a person, regardless of whether I'm rich or poor, successful, fat, skinny, right? Like they value me as a human being. And that gives me a tremendous sense of self-worth that extends beyond professional things. The second is, comes from,

Jon Coogan (08:13)
The second is come from just a shirt of the having an immigrant background. My folks immigrated from India to Canada in 1980s, literally classic shirts on your back, $5 in your wallet type of, you know, classical immigrants, know, work here, your story. And when you go through that life, you you know, we had financial security throughout my childhood. And yet my parents were just always thinking about, you know, making it through each challenge.

Nick J (08:16)
just to be having an immigrant background. My folks immigrated from India to Canada in the 1980s, literally classic shirts on your back, $5 in your wallet type of, you know, classical immigrant, you know, work your story. And when you go through that life, know, we had financial insecurity throughout my childhood. And yet my parents were just always thinking about, okay, you know, making it through each challenge. So we create opportunity for our children or our family in the future and having that kind of

Jon Coogan (08:40)
So we create opportunity for our children or our family in the future. having that kind of, doesn't matter what breaks us down, we're gonna push through this, if nothing else, then through brute force. And that mentality of brute force, again, what I emphasize is grind, has continued with me, that I believe that I may not be the most talented, I may not be the most intelligent, I may not be the most charismatic, whatever it is, hard work can compensate for all of that, regardless of whether I am or am not talented, maybe in almost any field of human endeavor.

Nick J (08:45)
doesn't matter what breaks us down, we're gonna push through this if nothing else than through brute force. And that mentality of brute force, again, what I emphasize is grind, has continued with me that I believe that I may not be the most talented, I may not be the most intelligent, I may not be the most charismatic, whatever it is, hard work can compensate for all of that, regardless of whether I am or am not talented, nearly at almost any field of human endeavor.

Jon Coogan (09:09)
And sticking with a theme really about your childhood and upbringing, I'm always fascinated to hear people's stories. I know you've had quite an interesting journey working. And I think it's in trucking in quite a variety of backgrounds in fashion. So you can talk a little bit about your journey from childhood to an immigrant child and to where you are now. Sure. So I grew up, know, for the first five years of my life, I grew up in India, raised by a single grandmother in a, you know, what India would call a tear, beer, teary.

Nick J (09:29)
Sure, I grew up, know, for the first five years of my life, I grew up in India, raised by a single grandmother in a, you know, what India would call a tier beer, tier three city. I'd running water half an hour in the morning, half an hour in the evening. I remember as a three year old kid, my job was to fill up, you know, tanks of water. So there'd be drinking water, showering water. Again, not, you know, I didn't have to slog to the town well or anything like that, but still like very different than here where we obviously have 24 hour running water.

Jon Coogan (09:39)
city so I'd running water half an hour in the morning half an hour in the evening I remember as a three-year-old kid my job was to fill up you know the tanks of water so they're drinking water showering water again not you know I didn't have to slog to the town well or anything like that but still like very different than here where we obviously have 24-hour running water grew up most of my childhood after that in Canada in a small farm town really pleasant wonderful safe experience

Nick J (09:58)
Grew up most of my childhood after that in Canada in a small farm town, really pleasant, wonderful, safe experience, phenomenal public education school system in Canada, so benefited from that. Did my education at Dartmouth College in the United States, which was a math and physics degree. Spent the first 10 years of my career on Wall Street as a professional investor working in a place like Bain Capital or Greenlight, doing big investing for multi-billion dollar deals.

Jon Coogan (10:06)
phenomenal public education school system in Canada, so benefit from that. Did my education at Dartmouth College in the United States, which was a math and physics degree. Spent the first 10 years of my career on Wall Street as a professional investor working in a place like Bain Capital or Greenlight, doing big investing for multi-billion dollar deals. Did my MBA at Harvard, as you mentioned, and then for the last four or five years, somehow I've stumbled into the job of being what I would call a professional CEO.

Nick J (10:24)
Did my MBA at Harvard, as you mentioned, and then for the last four five years, somehow I've stumbled into the job of being what I would call a professional CEO. So either private equity firms or entrepreneurs hire me when their business is ready to go to the next stage in its growth. So if you have a business that's become a five, $10 million business, but you need someone to take it to $100 million business, or if you have $100 million business and want to take it to billion dollar business, I'm the guy people hire because my skill set is two things.

Jon Coogan (10:32)
So either private equity firms or entrepreneurs hire me when their business is ready to go to the next stage in its growth. So if you have a business that's become a five, $10 million business, but you need someone to take it to $100 million business, or if you have $100 million business and want to take it to billion dollar business, I'm the guy people hire because my skill set is two things. Number one, I'm good at institutionalizing things, right? A lot of small businesses are not well institutionalized. They don't have a nice like...

Nick J (10:52)
Number one, I'm good at institutionalizing things, right? A lot of small businesses are not well institutionalized. They don't have a nice like flowing structure. They're very dependent on, you know, one key person. I make it an institution. that number two is I understand how businesses work really well and make money in a way that creates value for all three of the key constituents, which is your customers, your employees, and your shareholders. And I know how to create value in a way that all three of those parties win.

Jon Coogan (10:58)
flowing structure. very dependent on, you know, one key person. I make it an institution. So that number two is I understand how businesses work really well and make money in a way that creates value for all three of the key constituents, which is your customers, your employees and your shareholders. And I know how to create value in a way that all three of those parties win. And just what was it that attracted you to the innovation side? Cause that sounds very much like that's what you're into now. So what is it about innovation that drew you to it?

Nick J (11:28)
Yeah, think it's, I ended up at Ideascale mostly because I got a lucky phone call one day, but there were two things that were really exciting about this opportunity for me. One was at a personal level. I'd been co-CEO a couple of times. This was the first opportunity I could just be CEO and demonstrate, hey, I can do this by myself. I'm really good. So that's obviously a tremendous personal opportunity, a professional opportunity. When someone gives you that call, it's hard to say no. But then secondly, for Ideascale specifically, I really like what their product is.

Jon Coogan (11:28)
Yeah, I think it's, I ended up at Ideascale mostly because I got a lucky phone call one day, but there were two things that were really exciting about this opportunity for me. One was at a personal level. I'd been co-CEO a couple of times. This was the first opportunity I could just be CEO and demonstrate, hey, I can do this by myself. I'm really good. So that's obviously a tremendous personal opportunity, a professional opportunity. When someone gives you that call, it's hard to say no. But then secondly, for Ideascale specifically, I really like what their product is.

Nick J (11:56)
One of my frustrations throughout my career has been, hey, no one cares what my ideas are because I'm a junior random kid, no one cares, right? It's only the boss's boss's boss idea that matters. Whereas I thought, hey, if my idea is better, it should win. It makes everyone better off. Why is no one listening to me? And again, some ideas were stupid ideas, but the general concept that the best idea should win, regardless of whether it comes from someone senior, someone junior, someone on the other side of the world, that always frustrated me throughout my career. And Idea Skills product,

Jon Coogan (11:56)
one of my frustrations throughout my career has been, hey, no one cares what my ideas are because I'm a junior random kid. No one cares, right? It's only the boss's boss's boss idea that matters. Whereas I thought, hey, if my idea is better, it should win. It makes everyone better off. Why is no one listening to me? And again, some ideas were stupid ideas, but the general concept that the best idea should win, regardless of whether it comes from someone senior, someone junior, someone on the other side of the world, that always frustrated me throughout my career. And Idea Skills products,

Nick J (12:26)
aims to solve that problem because we move, shift from a, a, we help organizations shift from a culture where the loudest or senior most voice matters to an idea to a culture where an idea meritocracy flourishes. And I think that's really, really cool for me personally, because it addresses a personal frustration I've had, but then I also believe it's very, very powerful for large organizations which struggle with having the best ideas win rather than the loudest ideas win.

Jon Coogan (12:26)
aims to solve that problem because we move, shift from a, a, we help organizations shift from a culture where the loudest or senior most voice matters to an idea to a culture where an idea meritocracy flourishes. And I think that's really, really cool for me personally, because it addresses a personal frustration I've had, but then I also believe it's very, very powerful for large organizations which struggle with having the best ideas win rather than the loudest ideas win.

Talking about your background, you've had, we've mentioned trucking and fashion, et cetera. How has that diverse background assisted in the role you're doing now? Sure. So I think this is the third company I've had a co-ed or led in. I've realized many people grow up in just one company or one industry. By virtue of having been in a couple of different industries over my career and very senior roles, I think I've realized a few things. Number one, there's some consistent similarities across organizations. So

Nick J (13:06)
Sure, so I think this is the third company I've had a co-led or led. And I've realized many people grow up in just one company or one industry. By virtue of having been in a couple of different industries over my career in very senior roles, I think I've realized a few things. Number one, there's some consistent similarities across organizations. So every organization needs to have a product or service. They need to have an HR department, a finance department, cetera. So there's certain functions that are persistent or continuous across organizations. Secondly is,

Jon Coogan (13:25)
Every organization needs to have a product or service. They need to have an HR department, a finance department, et cetera. So there's certain functions that are persistent or continuous across organizations. Secondly is going back to that book recommendation I gave is a book. You can understand how a business makes money, whether that be a trucking business, a shoe cut business, a finance business, a software business. And being able to distill that down, especially have your senior staff distill that down and understand that very deeply is important.

Nick J (13:36)
going back to that book recommendation I gave, you can understand how a business makes money, whether that be a trucking business, a shoe cut business, a finance business, a software business, and being able to distill that down, especially have your senior staff distill that down and understand that very deeply is important. And number three is,

Jon Coogan (13:54)
And number three is the kind of softer side of things, right? At the end of the day, people, whether you're working finance or healthcare or trucking, people are people and the way you get people motivated and excited is actually really, really consistent, right? One of my mentors taught me what I call the four G's of human motivation, or what he called the four G's, should say, I'm stealing it directly from her. First is people are motivated by gold, basically money.

Nick J (13:57)
the kind of softer side of things, right? At the end of the day, people, whether you're working finance or healthcare or trucking, people are people and the way you get people motivated and excited is actually really, really consistent, right? One of my mentors taught me what I call the four G's of human motivation, or what he called the four G's, I should say. I'm stealing it directly from her. First is people are motivated by gold, basically money, guts, just to show they can to themselves. This is why people run like ultra ironmans.

Jon Coogan (14:22)
Guts just to show they can to themselves. This is why people run like ultra iron mans. Glory to brag to other people or for the common good, right? They just want to do well for humanity. And learning that and really believing it that you need to motivate, A, you need to motivate people no matter how good you are as CEO, you are relying on hundreds or thousands of other people. So you need to motivate them all and realizing that you need to motivate them differently using the four G's or some other framework.

Nick J (14:27)
glory to brag to other people or for the common good, right? They just want to do well for humanity. And learning that and really believing it that you need to motivate, A, you need to motivate people no matter how good you are as CEO, you are relying on hundreds or thousands of other people. So you need to motivate them all and realizing that you need to motivate them differently using the four G's or some other framework is really powerful and that's held consistent across the industries I've worked at.

Jon Coogan (14:50)
is really powerful and that's consistent across the industries I've worked at. And obviously I've gotten hopefully better at doing so because I think I underappreciated that my first few leadership roles. And having been a leader in a number of companies, is there one particular piece of advice you could say that makes a great leader from your experience? I think having no ego whatsoever, knowing that your leader is willing to sit his or her butt down and do the gruntiest, most

Nick J (14:54)
And obviously I've gotten hopefully better at doing so because I think I underappreciated that in my first few leadership roles.

I think having no ego whatsoever, knowing that your leader is willing to sit his or her butt down and do the gruntiest and most mindless work because it is important, shows that that work has value and that leader is willing to do anything necessary to help his or her organization thrive. I think that's incredibly motivating to people when they realize that nothing is below their CEO.

Jon Coogan (15:20)
mindless work because it is important shows that that work has value and that leader is willing to do anything necessary to help his or her organization thrive. I think that's incredibly motivating to people when they realize that nothing is below their CEO. And I think it ties in exactly with what you were just saying about anyone can have a great idea and what idea scales do and it's everyone's got a value.

Everyone's got part to play in the business and you never know when those great ideas going to come from. So now I think that's great advice about not having an ego. What I wanted to ask about was you've, you've been, quite vocal about being, sorry, I my words now, but I like did that bit out. So you've been quite vocal about generative AI and being quite passionate about it. Where's that interest come from for you? Sure. So it comes to two levels. Well, actually, it comes from.

Nick J (16:09)
Sure, so it comes to two levels. Actually, it comes from realizing the power of these technologies really, really early. So I had this crystallizing moment about a year and a half ago. So Gen.ai has been out for about two or three months. I've played around with it. it's a cool chatbot. Great, right? I the same experience everyone else did. It's a cool chatbot. And then I did something that made me realize this thing is insanely transformative for how organizations should.

Jon Coogan (16:14)
Realizing the power of these technologies really really early to all so I had this crystallizing moment about a year and a half ago So the gen AI has been out for about two or three months. I played around with it it's a cool chatbot. Great, right? I had the same experience everyone else did it's cool chatbot and then I Really did something that made me realize this thing is insanely transformative for how organization should work Which was I'm sitting in a bar waiting for my wife to finish up her work and she's up in the hotel room Do finishing up her work?

Nick J (16:35)
which was I'm sitting in a bar waiting for my wife to finish up her work and she's up in the hotel room finishing up her work. I'm down in the hotel bar in Amsterdam. I'm ready to go, you know, I'm having a beer and pizza, right? So not very focused, but I just have this thing. I've got an hour to kill. we don't have, IdeaSkill has no social media marketing presence at all, right? We don't have an employee dedicated to social media marketing, none of that.

Jon Coogan (16:42)
I'm down in the hotel bar in Amsterdam. ready to go, you know, I'm having a beer and pizza, right? So not very focused, but I can have this thing. I've got an hour to kill. we don't have ideas. Go has no social media marketing present at all, right? We don't have we don't have an employee dedicated to social media marketing. None of that. I'm like, OK, I've got an hour to kill. Let's see if I can, you know, try this gender AI stuff to do social media. So within an hour, me as one guy while drinking and having a pizza was able to set up.

Nick J (17:00)
I'm like, okay, I've got an hour to kill. Let's see if I can try this generative AI stuff to do social media. So within an hour, me as one guy, while drinking and having a pizza, was able to set up entire social media marketing campaign for our company for the next six months by myself, right? And I know nothing about social media or did not back then. And the results of that, so whatever, I set it up, we went out to have drinks. Then I looked at the results a week later and a month later.

Jon Coogan (17:12)
entire social media marketing campaign for our company for the next six months by myself, right? And I know nothing about social media or did not back then. And the results of that. So whatever I set it up, let it run. We went out to have drinks. Then I looked at the results a week later and a month later, and I was outperforming my all of my competitors combined who had dedicated social media teams, right? Like me and within our while drinking was outperforming guys who were working hours a year. And that is mind blowing that the level of productivity this can have.

Nick J (17:27)
And I was outperforming all of my competitors combined who had dedicated social media teams, right? Like me with an hour while drinking was outperforming guys who were working 2000 hours a year. And that is mind blowing that the level of productivity this can have. So really that I basically said like, this is one of the few things I'm just going to force everyone in the company to learn. whether you're on my marketing team, my sales team, my software engineering team, whether you're on my system operations team, you need to learn this technology. I'm pushing everyone to take.

Jon Coogan (17:41)
So really that I basically said like this is one of the few things I'm just going to force everyone in the company to learn. Like whether you're on my marketing team, my sales team, my software engineering team, whether you're on my system operations team, you need to learn this technology. I'm pushing everyone to take courses in prompt engineering to become extraordinarily powerful. These technologies, because if not, if it's not already there today, like if you don't know how to use this technology a year or two from now, you're basically unemployed. Because not that the technology is replaced to, but rather people who are

Nick J (17:55)
courses in prompt engineering to become extraordinarily powerful these technologies because if it's not already there today, like if you don't know how to use this technology a year or two from now, you're basically unemployable because not that the technology has replaced you, but rather people who are using this technology effectively are literally like 10 to 20 times more productive. And that's something an employer cannot ignore. I can't ignore it, right? I will be replaced if I don't master this technology at my level.

Jon Coogan (18:10)
using this technology effectively are literally like 10 to 20 times more productive. And that's something an employer cannot ignore. Yeah, that's exactly it. I can't ignore it, right? I will be replaced if I don't master this technology at my level. And that's something I sincerely believe I take the prompt engineering courses myself. Yeah. Like you say, it's just, it's just efficiency, just how much more you can get done in so much little time, but that's a really intriguing concept that you said that you didn't have a social media marketer when you want to.

Nick J (18:22)
And that's something I sincerely believe. I take the prompt engineering courses myself.

Jon Coogan (18:40)
idea scale 18 months ago. Is that still the case today or, or has that changed? That's still true. We have, we have a larger marketing team, but we have no dedicated social media marketing personnel and probably across all the people who are part, you know, doing a little bit here and there in social media. probably spend maybe 30 hours a year on social media marketing. And I think we are still within the innovation software space. We are still the best performers on social media. get more follower growth, more like more engagement and then all of my other competitors.

Nick J (18:44)
That's still true. have a larger marketing team, but we have no dedicated social media marketing personnel. And probably across all the people who are doing a little bit here and there in social media, we probably spend maybe 30 hours a year on social media marketing. I think we are still, within the innovation software space, we are still the best performers on social media. We get more follower growth, more like, more engagement. And then all of my other competitors, of my top 10 competitors, six have dedicated social media marketing teams, one or more FTEs.

Jon Coogan (19:07)
Of my top 10 competitors, six have dedicated social media marketing teams, one or more FTEs. And despite spending like 30 hours a year, we're outperforming all of them, maybe one. And was that a conscious decision just because that seems to go completely against the grain. So I'm just intrigued as to why, or how that decision came about, not to have social media marketing.

Nick J (19:12)
And despite spending like 30 hours a year, we're outperforming all of them, maybe one.

It's not a strategic decision, right? If it makes sense, we'll do so. IdeaSkill has no, you know, what I call no religion or no dogmatism about how we do things. We want to do things legally, ethically, and that it generates the most value for our three constituents. look, our realization is a stupid realization. Look, if we're outperforming everybody with a fraction of the effort and we get much more marketing ROI from allocating efforts to other activities, whether that be webinars or SEO or in-person conferences,

Jon Coogan (19:29)
It's not a strategic decision, right? If it makes sense, we'll do so. IdeaSkill has no, you know, what I call no religion or no dogmatism about how we do things. We want to do things legally, ethically, and that it generates the most value for our three constituents. look, our realization is a stupid realization. Look, if we're outperforming everybody with a fraction of the effort, and we get much more marketing ROI from allocating efforts to other activities, whether that be webinars or SEO or in-person conferences,

Nick J (19:57)
then we're gonna allocate our people to do that, because social media is already doing really, really well. Now, if I realize tomorrow that, so we could be doing even better if we had a person doing 1,000 hours and it's gonna make a difference to the business, we'll go hire someone to do it. But so far, when we've sat down and done the analysis, it like social media is a need to have, but it's not something that dramatically hypercharges the business. And number two, already at the, know, we've hit the point of diminishing returns, right? If we're already doing better than almost all of our competitors or perhaps all of our competitors,

Jon Coogan (19:57)
then we're going to allocate our people to do that because social media is already doing really, really well. Now, if I realized tomorrow that, so we could be do even better if we had a person doing a thousand hours and it's going to make a difference to the business, we'll go hire someone to do it. But so far, when we sat down and done the analysis, it says like social media is a need to have, but it's not something that dramatically hypercharges the business. And number two, we're already at the, you know, we've hit the point of diminishing returns, right? If we're already doing better than almost all of our competitors or perhaps all of our competitors.

Nick J (20:26)
Can we do that much better by throwing more fuel on the fire? And the answer is probably no, it's a point of diminishing returns or negative ROI at this point.

Jon Coogan (20:26)
Can we do that much better by throwing more fuel on the fire? And the answer is probably no, it's a point of diminishing returns or negative ROI at this point. So it's interesting to hear how you use an AI for social media, but how can IdeaScale use AI to help large businesses innovate? Sure. So we also incorporate AI in our product, but we did so, I think, a little bit more carefully than a lot of other people. First is because ideas are sensitive. We have sensitive IP on our software platform.

Nick J (20:42)
Sure. So we also incorporate AI in our product, but we did so, I think, a little bit more carefully than a lot of other people. First is because ideas are sensitive. We have sensitive IP on our software platform. A lot of companies' greatest ideas for their new drugs, for new products, sit on Ideascale software. And they obviously did not want that going out to Google or to Chat Cheap Tea or anything else. So that was number one. We were a little bit more careful about not using AI too much because

Jon Coogan (20:55)
that a lot of companies greatest ideas there for their new drugs, for new products to sit on ideas scale software. And they obviously did not want that going out to Google or to a chat, cheap tea or anything else. So that was number one. We were a little bit more careful about not using AI too much because our customers were concerned about privacy of the data. But the second was we wanted to be very careful about how we used AI in a way that augments human ideation and creativity not replaces it. So.

Nick J (21:11)
our customers were concerned about the privacy of the data. But the second was we wanted to be very careful about how we used AI in a way that augments human ideation and creativity not replaces it. So the first phase of our AI implementation was very simple. It just helps you sound and more intelligent. Because one of the things we realized is when people are talking about their ideas, not everyone is great at English or even if they're great at English, they may have stage fright or they may feel like, I don't use big, you know, 10 letter fancy words.

Jon Coogan (21:23)
The first phase of our AI implementation was very simple. It just helps you sound and more intelligent. Because one of the things we realized is when people are talking about their ideas, not everyone is great at English or even if they're great at English, they may have stage fright or they may feel like, don't use big, know, 10 letter fancy words. I'm going to sound stupid. So what we did with the very first implementation of our AI tool or AI into our technology was you, Jon, have your idea.

Nick J (21:40)
I'm gonna sound stupid. So what we did with the very first implementation of our AI tool or AI into our technology was you, Jon, have your idea. AI will just help you sound smarter so you don't sound dumb in front of your colleagues. It'll help you be more articulate. Very simple, but very, very powerful because stage fright is a real thing that inhibits a lot of human beings from sharing their ideas. Cause they're ashamed that, I don't sound smart. So that was the first iteration. That's been around for over a year now. I think our customers love it.

Jon Coogan (21:49)
I will just help you sound smarter so you don't sound dumb in front of your colleagues. It'll help you be more articulate. Very simple, but very, very powerful because stage fright is a real thing that inhibits a lot of human beings from sharing their ideas because they're ashamed that, I don't sound smart. So that was the first iteration. That's been around for over a year now. I think our customers love it. The bigger iterations coming out in about two or three months where we've said, look, ideas are fundamentally qualitative data.

Nick J (22:08)
the, the bigger iterations coming out in about two or three months where we've said, look, ideas are fundamentally qualitative data. how, analyzing qualitative data is difficult. You know, numbers are easy. You add, subtract, divide numbers, you calculate ratios, you draw graphs. How do you visualize or analyze qualitative data? So this is coming out in approximately December of this year, but we're taking, we're applying AI to analyze all the qualitative data that exists for our customers.

Jon Coogan (22:18)
analyzing qualitative data is difficult. Numbers are easy. You add, subtract, divide numbers, you calculate ratios, you draw graphs. How do you visualize or analyze qualitative data? So this is coming out in approximately December of this year, but we're applying AI to analyze all the qualitative data that exists for our customers, allowing them to figure out themes, trends, ideas in a way that is much more...

Nick J (22:36)
allowing them to figure out themes, trends, ideas in a way that is much more scalable. Because you can't read a thousand or ten thousand ideas as human being, but guess what? AI can, and AI can absorb that data and analyze it in a way that human beings would really struggle to.

Jon Coogan (22:42)
scale because you can't read a thousand or ten thousand ideas as human being but guess what AI can and AI can absorb that data analyzed in the way that human beings would you know really struggle to and just sticking with idea scale and how the actual process works I'm intrigued to find out is that something you can use as a standalone product or is it more of a consultancy which is done in collaboration with your team or what's the actual process software company we do not offer consulting services by design you know there's other great

Nick J (23:05)
No, we're hundred percent software company. We do not offer consulting services by design. You know, there's other great consultancies out there, both large major ones like the McKinsey's and Oliver Wines, the world as well as smaller boutique. We don't do any consulting. It's a standalone software solution. You can go to ideascale.com. If you're less than a hundred people, our software is completely free. It takes two seconds to set up entirely online, no downloads or anything, but it's a standalone solution. Obviously it integrates with other technologies. So if you need it to integrate into your

Jon Coogan (23:11)
Consultancies out there both large major ones like McKinsey's and all over winds the world as well smaller critique We don't do any consulting ours. It's a standalone software solution You can go to ideaskill.com if you're less than a hundred people our software is completely free It takes two seconds to set up entirely online no downloads or anything, but it's a standalone solution Obviously it integrates with other technologies So if you need to integrate into your project management solution or your whiteboarding solution your financial solution

Nick J (23:34)
project management solution or your whiteboarding solution, your financial solution, it integrates, but as a software suite, it's standalone, no different than like Microsoft Excel is standalone or HubSpot is standalone or pick your favorite piece of software.

Jon Coogan (23:38)
It integrates, as a software suite, it's standalone, no different than like Microsoft Excel is standalone or HubSpot is standalone or pick your favorite piece of software. Yeah. And one of things you've spoken about, I know you mentioned a few minutes ago, is creating win-win-win scenarios for all stakeholders. And I know that can be a very tricky thing, especially when you've got investors who after one thing, you've got your customers and employees. So how can you go about balancing those needs of all those competitors? Sure.

Nick J (24:06)
Sure, so I view it, the analogy I like to use is a stool, right? A three-legged stool. You cut one leg off of it and it'll balance, it may balance in what's called, in physics we call an unstable equilibrium, it'll last for a little bit, but eventually the smallest gust of wind will blow it over. And that's really important, that's analogy holds true for business, right? You have your customers, you need to sell them something that creates value for them. You need to pay your employees so they actually hang around and are productive and don't leave you for somewhere else.

Jon Coogan (24:06)
So I view it, the analogy I like to use is a stool, right? A three-legged stool. You cut one leg off of it and it'll balance, it may balance in what's called in physics, we call an unstable equilibrium. It'll last for a little bit, but eventually the smallest gust of wind will blow it over. And that's really important. That's analogy holds true for business, right? You have your customers, you need to sell them something that creates value for them. You need to pay your employees so they actually hang around and are productive and don't leave you for somewhere else.

Nick J (24:34)
and you need to generate value for your shareholders because if they're losing money, eventually they stop giving you money or, you know, they fire you and replace you with another CEO, right? So that is my core job. One of my core jobs as a CEO is to make sure that I am addressing, I'm aware of and addressing the needs of all of those three people simultaneously. If I'm failing at any of them, again, I may last for three months, six months, whatever, but eventually companies blow up companies that mistreat their customers.

Jon Coogan (24:34)
And you need to generate value for your shareholders because if they're losing money, eventually they stop giving you money or, you know, they fire you and replace you with another CEO. Right. So that is my core job. One of my core jobs as a CEO is to make sure that I am addressing, I'm aware of and addressing the needs of all of those three people simultaneously. If I'm failing at any of them again, I may last for three months, six months, whatever, but eventually companies blow up companies that mistreat their customers.

Nick J (25:01)
mistreat their employees or mistreat their shareholders, they are doomed to failure. So I don't view it as a difficult challenge. mean, technically it's difficult, but rather than a difficult challenge, I view it as an absolute necessity, right? the right nutrition into your body may be difficult, but it is necessary if you want to live, right? And that is true for a company. If I don't balance these three constituents, either I'm gone or the company's gone and both are bad outcomes.

Jon Coogan (25:01)
mistreat their employees or mistreat their shareholders, they are doomed to failure. So I don't view it as a difficult challenge. mean, technically it's difficult, but rather than a difficult challenge, I view it as an absolute necessity, right? the right nutrition into your body may be difficult, but it is necessary if you want to live, right? And that is true for a company. If I don't balance these three constituents, either I'm gone or the company's gone and both are bad out.

And when you come to making decisions, you've said CEO is quite a challenging role to be in. How do you actually make those difficult decisions? you have a set process you run through or tips or strategies that you use to make those difficult decisions? Sure. So I'm a principles-based leader. Some people lead in different styles, right? There's more charisma-based leadership. There is vision-based leadership. I'm a principles-based leader. At Ideascale, I think that there's a few principles we've laid out. Number one, what is our mission statement?

Nick J (25:45)
Sure, so I'm a principles-based leader. Some people lead in different styles, right? There's more charisma-based leadership. There is vision-based leadership. I'm a principles-based leader. At Ideascale, I think that there's a few principles we've laid out. Number one, what is our mission statement as a company? We want to be the innovation operating system for any large complex organization anywhere in the world. So we have a clear vision there. Number two is...

Jon Coogan (26:01)
as a company. We want to be the innovation operating system for any large complex organization anywhere in the world. We have a clear vision there. Number two is decisions at idea scale are made with basically two principles in mind. Number one is it legal, ethical, and does it create value for our constituents? And number two is it ROI positive? So every employee in the company has been told here is how we make return on investment positive decisions for idea scale.

Nick J (26:10)
Decisions at idea scale are made with basically two principles in mind. Number one, is it legal, ethical, and does it create value for our constituents? And number two, is it ROI positive? So every employee in the company has been told here is how we make return on investment positive decisions for idea scale. So whether that be a marketing decision, HR conference, we want to attend, a training for employees, a new product feature. There is a mathematical equation that if the number comes up positive, we do it.

Jon Coogan (26:27)
So whether that be marketing decision, HR conference we want to attend, a training for employees, a new product feature. There is a mathematical equation that if the number comes up positive, we do it. If it comes up negative, we don't do it. And it's not a matter of opinion. mean, some of the, we may debate about the assumptions that go into that equation, but if the number is negative, everyone at the company knows we won't do it. And if the number is positive, everyone at the company knows Nick may not like it, but if the number is positive, we're still doing it. So my opinion does not matter because the principle of how you run a company.

Nick J (26:38)
If it comes up negative, we don't do it. And it's not a matter of opinion. mean, some of the, we may debate about the assumptions that go into that equation, but if the number is negative, everyone at the company knows we won't do it. And if the number is positive, everyone at the company knows Nick may not like it, but if the number is positive, we're still doing it. So my opinion does not matter because the principle of how you run a company is fundamentally superior to any, you know, gut feel I as you know, CEO have. So this is not a company that is run by Nick Jane. It is run by fundamental principles.

Jon Coogan (26:56)
is fundamentally superior to any, you know, gut feel I as a, you know, CLF. So this is not a company that is run by Nick Jane. It is run by fundamental principles on how you make good decisions and create value for your customers. And with Ideascale being an innovation company, how do you actually foster innovation within your own teams at Ideascale? Sure. So I love that question. So firstly, we use, you know, as one of my colleagues says, we drink our own champagne. We use our own software in-house.

Nick J (27:05)
on how you make good decisions and create value for your customers.

Sure, so first, I love that question. So firstly, we use, as one of my colleagues says, we drink our own champagne. We use our own software in-house. when we make, you talked about how you just asked me about how we make decisions. At Ideascale, all the ideas, whether it be technical engineering ideas, product ideas, marketing ideas, our new mascot, which we selected about a month ago, all of those are open decision-making forums within the company. And some are, by the way, open to our customers too, where if you go to ideas.ideascale.com, customers can, or not just customers, like,

Jon Coogan (27:25)
When we make, you you talked about how you just asked me about how we make decisions at IdeaScale, all the ideas, whether it be technical engineering ideas, product ideas, marketing ideas, our new mascot, which we selected about a month ago, all of those are open decision making forums within the company. And some are, by the way, open to our customers too, where if you go to ideas.ideascale.com, customers can, or not just customers, like anyone in the world can submit ideas for how we make our company better. Those ideas are voted up and down.

Nick J (27:46)
where anyone in the world can submit ideas for how we make our company better. Those ideas are voted up and down. My ideas are frequently voted down to the bottom because some people think, hey, Nick's ideas are stupid. Hopefully some of my ideas are good and get voted to the top. But this is a company culture where people feel comfortable saying Nick's ideas are stupid and voting them down, even a CEO. And conversely, junior people's ideas float to the top. And guess what? We do those ideas. So we are innovative because we rely on the best ideas and an objective idea meritocracy.

Jon Coogan (27:52)
My ideas are frequently voted down to the bottom because some people think, hey, Nick's ideas are stupid. Hopefully some of my ideas are good and get voted to the top. But this is a company culture where people feel comfortable saying Nick's ideas are stupid and voting them down, even a CEO. And conversely, junior people's ideas go to the top. And guess what? We do those ideas. So we are innovative because we rely on the best ideas and an objective idea meritocracy, not like...

Nick J (28:16)
not like a command and conquer, Nick makes arbitrary decisions based on his feelings.

Jon Coogan (28:18)
a command and conquer, Nick makes arbitrary decisions based on his feelings. One of the things that I really believe in business is for people to be valued and be part of the team. have to have a meaning within the team, have to feel safe, whether that's safety, physical safety, and have the resources to do it, whether it is software or whatever it might be. But how have you seen actually giving meaning to people and giving people

the power to make those kinds of ideas come to life. How have you seen that change your culture? Sure. So a few things. Number one, as I just said, like we're a decentralized decision-making organization. So there's a lot of latitude. And even if someone doesn't have the technical authority to make a decision, they know that if they have a good idea, because it's a, this framework's very obvious. If they have a good idea, all they do after you've floated up to their boss or their boss's boss and it gets done.

Nick J (28:50)
Sure, so a few things. Number one, as I just said, like we're a decentralized decision-making organization. So there's a lot of latitude. And even if someone doesn't have the technical authority to make a decision, they know that if they have a good idea, because this framework's very obvious, if they have a good idea, all they do have to do is float it up to their boss or their boss's boss and it gets done. So you may not be able to spend the money yourself, but if you know you have a good idea, you know that money will be spent or that project will be done or that feature will be created, right? That's number one.

Jon Coogan (29:11)
You may not be able to spend the money yourself, but if you know you have a good idea, you know that money will be spent or that project will be done or that feature will be created, right? That's number one. Number two is we're a small enough organization where, you know, anyone can contact me, right? Like there's no there's no shame or there's no fear of people slacking, you know, Nick and saying, have an idea or I disagree with my boss or here's a, you know, something stupid you're doing. People tell me I'm doing something stupid all the time and my reaction is, great.

Nick J (29:20)
Number two is we're a small enough organization where, you know, anyone can contact me, right? Like there's no shame or there's no fear of people slacking, you know, Nick and saying, I have an idea or I disagree with my boss or here's a, you know, something stupid you're doing. People tell me I'm doing something stupid all the time. And my reaction is, okay, great. I'm going to tell me how I can fix it and I will go fix it. And so it creates a very safe culture where you know, you have direct access to the CEO, but also that decisions are not made.

Jon Coogan (29:40)
I'm going to tell me how I can fix it and I will go fix it. And so it creates a very safe culture where you know you have direct access to the CEO, but also that decisions are not made capriciously or arbitrarily. In a lot of organizations, you're kind of at the whims of your boss or your boss's emotions. If your boss had a crappy day, you know, they may take it out on you. At Idea Scale, we try very, very hard that this is a rational organization. We treat people, our employees and our customers with dignity and respect. And we really let

Nick J (29:50)
capriciously or arbitrarily. In a lot of organizations, you're kind of at the whims of your boss or your boss's emotions. If your boss had a crappy day, you know, they may take it out on you. At Idea Scale, we try very, very hard that this is a rational organization. We treat people, our employees, and our customers with dignity and respect, and we really let the company be run kind of on a best ideas basis, not a ego or, you know, hubris or...

Jon Coogan (30:10)
the company be run kind of on a best ideas basis, not a ego or, you know, hubris or Nick having a bad day basis. If I have a bad day, as a matter of professional regulation, I will just check out for a couple of hours till I'm calmed down because I don't want to ever have that be effect to the safety or trust that my employees have in me. And with the ideas that are being created, are they submitted?

Nick J (30:18)
Nick having a bad day basis. If I have a bad day, yes, as a matter of professional regulation, I will just check out for a couple of hours till I'm calmed down because I don't want to ever have that be effect to the safety or trust that my employees have in me.

Jon Coogan (30:39)
anonymously, is it all with names? I'm just intrigued as to if that has much of an impact on what gets. that's configurable in our software. We recommend, and most of our customers follow this recommendation that you allow employee or your submitters to have the choice to submit anonymously or not. So for example, if you go to ideas.ideascale.com, we've left you the choice. You, Jon, can submit under your own name, or you can say, check the anonymous box and it's totally anonymous. No one knows. I can't even go into some backend and discover it was you. So

Nick J (30:42)
It's your choice. that's configurable in our software. We recommend, and most of our customers follow this recommendation, that you allow your submitters to have the choice to submit anonymously or not. So for example, if you go to ideas.ideascale.com, we've left you the choice. You, Jon, can submit under your own name, or you can say, check the anonymous box and it's totally anonymous. No one knows. I can't even go into some backend and discover it was you. So actually sometimes, for more sensitive ideas, I submit them.

Jon Coogan (31:08)
Actually, sometimes, you know, for more sensitive ideas, I submit them anonymously. Sometimes I submit them under my own name and I, you know, I flip back and forth depending on the type of idea it is. I was just wondering if you've done any blind testing, see if there's a difference into in the reaction you get. Have you done anything like that? For us? No. Again, for I actually, the reason I submit a lot of ideas anonymously is because I want to do that blind testing. Are people voting for IDICS ideas? But an idea scale, can confidently say, look, are culture strong enough?

Nick J (31:12)
anonymously, sometimes I submit them under my own name and I flip back and forth depending on the type of idea it is.

For us, no, again, for I actually, the reason I submit a lot of ideas anonymously is because I wanna do that blind test, hey, are people voting for Nick's ideas? But at idea scale, can confidently say, look, our culture is strong enough and our belief in the idea meritocracy is strong enough that no one cares whether it be Nick or Meinl or Laura or Jon, the best idea wins. At other organizations where there's less of that trust in the idea meritocracy or you may, you're boss.

Jon Coogan (31:37)
and our belief in the idea of meritocracy strong enough that no one cares whether it be Nick or Meinl or Laura or Jon, the best idea wins. At other organizations where there's less of that trust in the idea of meritocracy or you you met your boss, I think there's probably more of an impact or more of a positive impact of submitting anonymously. Hopefully we encourage all organizations to culturally move to the point where, you know, your name doesn't matter, what you look like doesn't matter, your funny accent doesn't matter, right? It's the idea.

Nick J (31:52)
I think there's probably more of a positive impact of submitting anonymously. Hopefully we encourage all organizations to culturally move to the point where your name doesn't matter, what you look like doesn't matter, your funny accent doesn't matter, right? It's the idea. I don't think all organizations are there, which candidly is good because that's why we're helping them solve that problem. If they solve that problem, then I don't have a business. But Idea Scale, fortunately, is a very strong place where ideas matter and

Jon Coogan (32:07)
I don't think all organizations are there, which candidly is good because that's why we exist, you know, we're helping them solve that problem. If they solve that problem, then I don't have a business. but idea scale, fortunately is a very strong place where ideas matter and there's very little ego about where the ideas come from. And how have you personally got to that place of leaving your ego at the door? Cause it can be quite difficult if you're having your ideas, especially when you're seen as the leader and somebody in charge.

Nick J (32:21)
There's very little ego about where the ideas come from.

Jon Coogan (32:34)
How have you got to that place where you've not taken it all personally? Sure. So I was fortunate because that was more or less beaten into me at an undergraduate. I was theoretical math major. And for anyone who's taken higher maths in college, you get your ego broken down very quickly. You realize, you know, there was a woman I met in my freshman year of college and she had won the international math Olympiad from team China. So she was truly from a purely IQ, whatever natural gifts God gave her was at extraordinary level. So

Nick J (32:38)
Sure, so I was fortunate because that was more or less beaten into me at an undergraduate. I was a theoretical math major and for anyone who's taken higher maths in college, you get your ego broken down very quickly. You realize, you know, there was a woman I met in my freshman year of college and she had won the International Math Olympiad from Team China. So she was truly from a purely IQ, whatever natural gifts God gave her was at extraordinary level. So.

you just realize, you know, no matter how smart you show, I think you, or when I showed up at college, thought, Hey, I'm smart, I'm brilliant. I made it into this good college. And then I meet someone who is fundamentally at a different level of like competence than I will ever be able to achieve. So your ego got beaten. And in addition, if you study sciences, at least the college I went to, there was a very collaborative culture where you, when you're, you're solving problem sets as part of a team and you're not taking credit that Nick solved this problem and Ben solved this problem and Alex solved this problem.

Jon Coogan (33:03)
you just realize, you know, no matter how smart you show, I you, or when I showed up at college, thought, hey, I'm smart, I'm brilliant, I made it into this good college. And then I meet someone who is fundamentally at a different level of like competence than I will ever be able to achieve. So your ego got beaten. And in addition, if you study sciences, at least the college I went to, there was a very collaborative culture where you, when you're, you're solving problems sets as part of a team and you're not taking credit that Nick solved this problem and Ben solved this problem and Alex solved this problem. So there was very much a for,

Nick J (33:30)
So there was very much a focus on coming to the right solution regardless of who solved that problem. And that has thankfully continued with me throughout my career and is a core part of who I am as a person where I care a lot more about solving the problem and coming to the right solution than who gets credit for that solution. And then at an ethics level, look, if the pie grows bigger, everyone benefits, right? I'm a fundamental believer in that. Let's make the pie bigger.

Jon Coogan (33:31)
focus on coming to the right solution, regardless of who solved that problem. And that has thankfully continued with me throughout my career and is a core part of who I am as a person where I care a lot more about solving the problem and coming to the right solution than who gets credit for that solution. And then at an ethics level, look, if the pie grows bigger, everyone benefits. I'm a fundamental believer in that. Let's make the pie bigger, and then we'll worry about who gets how big a piece of pie.

Nick J (33:58)
and then we'll worry about who gets how big a piece of pie.

Jon Coogan (34:02)
And it's along a similar vein, I'm going to ask the next question, but I actually read a theme must been as recent as yesterday, a study, and it was saying about how the more successful people are, and the more distinguished colleges, etc. they go to the more they tend to suffer from imposter syndrome. And specifically Harvard was mentioned as one of the one of the places that people do tend to imposter syndrome because of all the status that goes with it. Is that something you've suffered with throughout your career at all?

Nick J (34:34)
Fortunately, no, right? I think I worked my butt off to have the opportunity to go into institutions like Harvard. At the same time, look, there's a lot of my classmates who are kind of the children of billionaires or had presidents or whatever as their parents. I did not feel an imposter because I'm not pretending that, my father or mother is a billionaire, right? My father's a janitor who doesn't speak English. My mother worked at a factory for most of her life. So I know who I am.

Jon Coogan (34:34)
Fortunately, no, right? I think I, you know, worked my butt off to have the opportunity to go into institutions like Harvard. At the same time, look, there's a lot of my classmates who are kind of the children of billionaires or had presidents or whatever as their parents. I did not feel an imposter because I'm not pretending that, my father or mother is a billionaire, right? My father is a janitor who doesn't speak English. My mother worked in a factory for most of her life. So I know who I am.

Nick J (35:01)
I know what I'm extraordinary talented, I'm really good at math, I work my butt off and I'm incredibly ethical person. If that's not good enough for Harvard, then so be it, then I didn't deserve to be there. I got in on what I believe are valuable merits and that I value in myself. If they don't value it, so be it. And so yeah, I don't suffer from imposter syndrome because I am very, very comfortable in who I am as a person both before Harvard, during Harvard and now throughout my adult life.

Jon Coogan (35:01)
I know what I'm extraordinary talented, I'm really good at math, I work my butt off and I'm incredibly ethical person. If that's not good enough for Harvard, then so be it, then I didn't deserve to be there. I got in on what I believe are valuable merits and that I value in myself. If they don't value it, so be it. And so yeah, I don't suck from imposter syndrome because I am very, comfortable in who I am as a person both before Harvard, during Harvard and now throughout my adult life.

Yeah, I think it's probably partly reflected in some of the diverse hobby you've got as well as quite a collection you've got from, I know it's about battles. that participating, watching or what's your interest there? No, I'm not skilled. I'm not a battle rapper myself, but you know, I've been to live events. I watched a ton on YouTube and a fan for like 10 plus years. They're really interesting to actually compete. Actually requires a lot of effort because you are spending a lot of time writing verse. It's like a professional writer, a professional poet.

Nick J (35:39)
No, I'm not skilled. I'm not a battle rapper myself, but you know, I've been to live events. I watched a ton on YouTube, been a fan for like 10 plus years. They're really interesting to actually compete. Actually requires a lot of effort because you are spending a lot of time writing verse. It's like a professional writer, a professional poet. The guys who are doing it competitively are actual professional writers now, given how much time and effort they put into it. So no competition on my side, just participation. I mean, just observation.

Jon Coogan (35:57)
The guys who are doing it competitively are actual professional writers now, given how much time and effort they put into it. So no competition on my side, just participation. I mean, just observation. Is there any way that some of these hobbies have influenced your philosophy when it comes to business?

Nick J (36:14)
I think probably not the battle rap, I think reading a lot and poker I think influence businesses a lot. on reading, I've spent a lot of time and continue to a lot of time, spend a lot of time reading kind of what I would call the great novels or the great books, right? And not just English, at least the translated versions of other languages. And I think the value of that firstly is you gain a sense of

Jon Coogan (36:15)
I think not that probably not the battle rap, but the I think reading, reading a lot and poker, think, influence businesses a lot. So on reading, I've spent a lot of time and continue to a lot of time, spend a lot of time reading kind of what I would call the great novels or the great books, right? From and not just English, but at least the translated versions of other languages. And I think the value of that firstly is you gain a sense of

the broader sense of the universe and of humanity, right? So by reading, let's say Paradise Lost, you get a sense of, somebody wrote something incredibly beautiful that I can't accomplish, and at least I can gain an appreciation for this transcendental beauty. Reading the novels of, you know, a different culture give you an appreciation for the way different organizations or different cultures fundamentally think about business, right? So like, my family's originally from India, I have probably a greater appreciation for India than the average person living in the Western world.

Nick J (36:45)
a broader sense of the universe and of humanity, right? So by reading, let's say Paradise Lost, you get a sense of, somebody wrote something incredibly beautiful that I can't accomplish, and at least I can gain an appreciation for this transcendental beauty. Reading the novels of a different culture give you an appreciation for the way different organizations or different cultures fundamentally think about business, right? So like, my family's originally from India, I have probably a greater appreciation for India than the average person living in the Western world.

So, but Matt, I have no appreciation for the cultures of China or Japan. And so by reading their literature, I think I gain an appreciation for how they think about the world a little bit more. And that certainly matters on how you deal in business. The way I would do business with somebody from America versus the UK versus China versus India versus Japan, fundamentally different. And I'm not just talking basic things like handing a business card with two hands, but the value systems are actually different. And I think that's important to understand and it affects my...

Jon Coogan (37:11)
So, but Matt, I have no appreciation for the cultures of China or Japan. And so by reading their literature, I think I gain an appreciation for how they, you know, how they think about the world a little bit more. And that certainly matters on how you deal in business. The way I would do business with somebody from America versus the UK versus China versus India versus Japan, fundamentally different. And I'm not just talking basic things like handing a business card with two hands, but the value systems are actually different. And I think that's important to understand and it affects my...

Nick J (37:38)
the way I do business with folks from different parts of life. And then on the, I think for poker, poker actually is pretty much synonymous with goods executive decision-making. It forces you to be analytical. Poker is a lot about math. Any good executive better be good at math. And if they're not, like I don't trust them to manage my money or my company or my employees.

Jon Coogan (37:38)
the way I do business with folks from different parts of life. And then on the, I think for poker, poker actually is pretty much synonymous with goods executive decision making. It forces you to be analytical. Poker is a lot about math. Any good executive better be good at math. And if they're not, like I don't trust them to manage my money or my company or my employees. Number two, it forced you to think about risk. In poker, you can make the best possible decision and bad luck can still screw you, right? You can have the best hand possible and one more card can come and just,

Nick J (37:58)
Number two, it forced you to think about risk. In poker, you can make the best possible decision and bad luck can still screw you, right? You can have the best hand possible and one more card can come and just make your opponent absolutely destroy you. And that's true in business too. You can do everything right. You can have a great product, great marketing campaign, and COVID happens. You just have to be prepared and run your business in a way where you can handle downside risks, especially those that are out of your control. Number three, it forces you to be kind of

Jon Coogan (38:08)
make your opponent absolutely destroy you. And that's true in business too. can do everything right. can have a great product, great marketing campaign, and COVID happens. You just have to be prepared and run your business in a way where you can handle downside risks, especially those that are out of your control. Number three, it forces you to be kind of emotionally self-modulating, right? In poker, like you'll have bad runs and good runs, like luck over the long time average to zero, but any given, know,

Nick J (38:26)
Emotionally self-modulating, right? In poker, you'll have bad runs and good runs. Like luck over the long time averages to zero, but any given hour, any given day, you could just be really, really unlucky and that could cause you to be emotionally, the term is going on tilt, where you are no longer making rational decisions. And that happens in business too. could have a, I'm emotionally affected by sunlight. I love sunlight.

Jon Coogan (38:35)
hour any given day, you could just be really, really unlucky and that could cause you to be emotionally, the term is going on tilt where you are no longer making rational decisions. And that happens in business too. You could have a, know, I I'm emotionally affected by sunlight. I love sunlight. so if it's been great for a long time, I know I'm not as happy and not as making as good decisions. So I need to like put on a sun lamp or go do something that re-regulates me. And I think poker teaches you that very, very painfully that, Hey, you need to emotionally regulate.

Nick J (38:51)
So if it's been gray for a long time, I know I'm not as happy and not as making as good decisions. So I need to like put on a sun lamp or go do something that re-regulates me. And I think poker teaches you that very, very painfully that, hey, you need to emotionally regulate and be aware of when you are on tilt. And if you are on tilt, walk away. Just go do something else till you're a Basindran. I certainly try and do that at CEO. If I'm not being productive or if I feel like I'm acting from a place of emotion rather than rational thinking, I just stop working.

Jon Coogan (39:04)
and be aware of what you are on tilt. And if you are on tilt, walk away. Just go do something else till you are a Basindran. I certainly try and do that at CEO. If I'm not being productive, or if I feel like I'm acting from a place of emotion rather than rational thinking, I just stop working. Because I know I'm making bad decisions that will negatively impact my constituents. I think that's some great advice. I think two things in particular I like was the idea about learning about other cultures when you are doing business. And it is those little subtle...

Nick J (39:20)
Because I know I'm making bad decisions that will negatively impact my constituents.

Jon Coogan (39:33)
subtleties, especially when it's so global. And like we're speaking now from a couple of thousand miles away from each other. And that's just happening more and more. And I think the second one is around what I tend to see is where CEOs, founders companies will see that company as part of themselves. If it is having a good time, if it's doing well, they're on the high, if it's doing badly, then suddenly whole mood shifts can go into depression. And it's just having that connection.

between how they feel and how the company is doing. So I think it's great that you're taking more of a different approach to it and just separating yourself from how the business is doing and just seeing a bit more stand back-ish and objectively.

Nick J (40:20)
Thank you. Yeah, no. Look, I matter to the business. I care a lot about the business, but I know that I need to separate myself from the business because if you end up in a feedback loop, then that's really, really negative on the negative side.

Jon Coogan (40:20)
Thank you. Yeah, no. Look, I matter to the business. I care a lot about the business, but I know that I need to separate myself from the business because one, if you create and get end up in a feedback loop, then that's really, really negative, negative side. Yeah. So talk about innovation, which we have done throughout this show so far. And I mentioned some of the things that happened happening with ideas scale in the next few months. Where do you see ideas scale going in the next five years?

medium to long term? Sure. So I think we're doing two things that are over the long term. Number one is we started expanding globally earlier this year, around January. So really prior to 2024, we were a Anglo-Saxon focused company where we focusing on the English speaking countries. We didn't have a lot of language skills, a lot of cultural competency and other ways of doing business. In January, we started expanding globally. hired people in a lot.

Nick J (40:51)
Sure, so I think we're doing two things that are over the long term. Number one is we started expanding globally earlier this year, around January. So really prior to 2024, we were a...

you know, Anglo-Saxon focused company where we were focusing on the English speaking countries. We didn't have a lot of language skills, a lot of cultural competency and other ways of doing business. In January, we started expanding globally. We hired people in Spanish speaking Latin America as well as Portuguese speaking Latin America in South Africa. And we started expanding our business operations in the Middle East and we were a person in Switzerland, a bunch of people in Asia as well. So we started expanding globally and that obviously required acquiring language skills as well as some of the

Jon Coogan (41:18)
Spanish-speaking, Latin America as well as Portuguese-speaking Latin America and South Africa and we started expanding our business operations in the Middle East and have a person in Switzerland, bunch of people in Asia as well. So we started expanding globally and that obviously required acquiring language skills as well some of the cultural competency issues and things that we were just discussing. That's number one because we want to be a globally relevant organization. We're already the biggest innovation software company and I think we're by far the best.

Nick J (41:34)
cultural competency issues that we were just discussing. That's number one, because we want to be a globally relevant organization. We're already the biggest innovation software company, and I think we're by far the best, but we're still not fully globally relevant yet, and we want to be globally relevant. I want to be the operating system for Hong Kong-based companies, India-based companies, Switzerland-based companies. I want to be the innovation operating system for everyone. That's number one. Number two is on the product side.

Jon Coogan (41:46)
but we're still not fully globally relevant yet and we want to be globally relevant. I want to be the operating system for Hong Kong based companies, India based companies, Switzerland based companies. I want to be the innovation operating system for everyone. That's number one. Number two is on the product side. Historically, we were basically, we had one module and we were best in class. It was an idea management module that helped you collect those ideas. But we realized that that innovation is not just about ideas. There's a bunch of other problems that cheap innovation.

Nick J (42:04)
Historically, we were basically, we had one module and we were best in class. It was an idea management module that helped you collect those ideas. we, we've realized that that innovation is not just about ideas. There's a bunch of other problems that chief innovation officers or, or, or large organizations more broadly try and solve with innovation. And so over the past couple of months, we've started to add modules that attack other parts of the innovation problem. So about six months ago, we launched a whiteboarding module that allows you to do unstructured thinking. So even before something's an idea like.

Jon Coogan (42:16)
officers or large organizations more broadly try and solve with innovation. And so over the past couple of months, we've started to add modules that attack other parts of the innovation problem. So about six months ago, we launched a white boarding module that allows you to do unstructured thinking. even before something's an idea, like how do you come up with those ideas in the first place? In a few months, we'll be launching a project management module that does a better job of taking an idea and turning it into an actual product or feature or

Nick J (42:33)
How do you come up with those ideas in the first place? In a few months, we'll be launching a project management module that does a better job of taking an idea and turning it into an actual product or feature or snack in the kitchen helps you actualize those ideas. There's another module that's a little bit further out of what if you can't solve the problem with your internal people, right? There's some problems which require external innovation.

Jon Coogan (42:45)
snack in the kitchen helps you actualize those ideas. There's another module that's a little bit further out of how, what if you can't solve the problem with your internal people, right? There's some problems which require external innovation. How do you tap that? Is it do hire or buy a startup or do you tap a crowd of experts in their field that exists outside your organization? So if you are NASA, you have a thousand scientists, but there's a hundred thousand scientists outside of your organization that you may want to.

Nick J (43:00)
How do you tap that? Is it do you hire or buy a startup or do you tap a crowd of experts in their field that exists outside your organization? So if you are NASA, you have a thousand scientists, but there's a hundred thousand scientists outside your organization that you may want to tap the brains up. the product vision is now we're going to move from a kind of one product best in class company to having multiple modules that attack different parts of the innovation problem. And hopefully you do each of those in a best in class way.

Jon Coogan (43:15)
tap the brains up. we're the product vision is now we're going to move from a kind of one product best in class company to having multiple modules that attack different parts of the innovation problem. And hopefully you do each of those in a best in class way. You what you said a lot of information today. What I'd like to ask is if there's one thing that I'll listen to should take away from this conversation today, what do you think that should be? I have to break it into two because I'll give one at a corporate level and one at an individual level.

Nick J (43:39)
I have to break it into two because I'll give one at a corporate level and one at an individual level. As an individual, hard work is the most important thing for success in any field of life or endeavor. at an organizational level, innovation matters because if your organization is not innovating, just remember your competitors are. And that's a terrifying proposition.

Jon Coogan (43:44)
As an individual, hard work is the most important thing for success in any field of life or endeavor. at a organizational, innovation matters because if your organization is not innovating, just remember your competitors are. And that's a terrifying proposition. If you could add one person to the mindset Mavericks Hall of Fame, who would it be?

Nick J (44:14)
So this is not a famous answer, know, it's not gonna be the Elon Musk, I would say it would be my grandmother. She raised four generations of people as a single woman in colonial India. And somebody, she raised her parents' generation, her siblings' generation as the oldest daughter of seven. She raised my mother's generation as a single mother and then she raised me for most of my childhood. Someone who could make 80 years of sacrifice through kind of, again, single woman, colonial India, you no husband.

Jon Coogan (44:15)
So this is not a famous answer, know, it's not going to be the hero of Musk. would say it would be my grandmother. She raised four generations of people as a single woman in colonial India. And somebody, she raised her parents generation, her siblings generation as the oldest daughter of seven. She raised my mother's generation as a single mother. And then she raised me for most of my childhood, someone who could make 80 years of sacrifice through kind of, again, single woman, colonial India, you no husband.

Nick J (44:41)
That is an extraordinary accomplishment and shows a certain level of mental fortitude and long-term thinking that is, I think is extraordinary.

Jon Coogan (44:41)
That is an extraordinary accomplishment and shows us a certain level of mental fortitude and long-term thinking that is, I think is extraordinary. Yeah, no, I think that's a brilliant answer. I think if you ask anyone on the street who won or who scored a winning goal for, could be FA Cup in England or a similar sports event in America from five years ago, most people wouldn't remember. If you ask somebody who's a person who's influenced you most in your life, it's going to be a teacher. It might be parent or grandparents. No, I think that's great to hear.

And do think that's where you got your hard work ethic from?

Nick J (45:16)
I don't think it's from my grandmother per se. think the hard work ethic more comes from my parents. I think the notion of long-term thinking comes from both my parents and my grandmother. The idea that they've made sacrifices over 80 years. I've been very successful in life and very fortunate, but that's not due to me. That is 80 years of sacrifice and investing. That is mind-blowing. Most people think about working hard for a year or five years to build a company.

Jon Coogan (45:16)
I don't think it's from my grandmother per se. think the hard work ethic more comes from my parents. think the notion of long-term thinking comes from both my parents and my grandmother. The idea that they've made sacrifices over 80 years. I've been very successful in life and very fortunate, but that's not due to me. That is 80 years of sacrifice and investing. That is almost mind blowing. Most people think about working hard for a year or five years to build a company.

Nick J (45:44)
My family's been investing to give me the opportunities I've had for 80 years. That is insane and I valued and am deeply grateful for on a daily basis.

Jon Coogan (45:44)
My family's been investing to give me the opportunities I've had for 80 years. That is insane. And, you know, I valued and am deeply grateful for on a daily basis. And I think I've got one final question for you. And it's just really to ask you if there's one mindset shift, which you've personally had in your life today, what has it been that's enabled you to be successful?

Nick J (46:18)
I think it has been about being much more an explicit communicator. My natural style is to, know, a lot of things are obviously true, so why do we need to say them? And I think I've realized, number one, not all things that are obviously true to me are in fact either true or maybe obvious to others. Some things I may think may be incorrect. So verbalizing them and communicating them explicitly, whether that be management principles, why we're making decisions, why, you know, why...

Jon Coogan (46:18)
I think it has been about being much more an explicit communicator. My natural style is to, know, a lot of things are obviously true. So why do we need to say them? And I think I've realized number one, not all things that are obviously true to me are in fact either true or maybe obvious to others. Some things I mean, things may be incorrect. So verbalizing them and communicating them explicitly, whether that be management persons, why we're making decisions, why, you know, why...

Nick J (46:45)
something is the way it is. Saying things explicitly, I think has dramatically improved my ability to A, build relationships with people, but B, also be productive in a organizational setting.

Jon Coogan (46:45)
something is the way it is. Saying things explicitly, I think has dramatically improved my ability to A, build relationships with people, but B, also be productive in an organizational setting. And that's a great reminder for me as well, because I think I'm still stuck in an old mindset where you've said it, where things don't need to be said and it's assumed or implied, but now it's a great reminder. So I want thank you very much for being here. If anyone does want to find out a bit more about IdeaScare and about yourself, Nick, where?

Should we head to, where can we find out more? Sure, so two ways. Firstly, for Ideascale, our website is www.ideascale.com. Again, our software is completely free for if you're less than 100 people, so we'd love you to check those. If you're a large organization, please be my customer. If you want to get in touch with me personally, the easiest way is LinkedIn. My name is Nick Jane. I am usually the top results globally on LinkedIn, and I respond to 100 % of messages there, so feel free to contact me.

Nick J (47:16)
Sure, so two ways. Firstly, for Ideascale, our website is www.ideascale.com. Again, our software is completely free for if you're less than 100 people, so we'd love if checked it out. If you're large organization, please be my customer. If you want to get in touch with me personally, the easiest way is LinkedIn. My name is Nick Jane. I am usually the top result globally on LinkedIn, and I respond to 100 % of messages there, so feel free to contact me.

Jon Coogan (47:42)
But that's fantastic. Thank you very much for coming on. There's a lot of information for myself and guests to digest. There's a lot around innovation I'll definitely be implementing in my businesses. So thank you very much. Thank you so much for having me, Jon. It's been an honor and a pleasure. Thank you.

Nick J (47:52)
Thank you so much for having me, Jon. It's been an honor and a pleasure.